Got a 968! And questions.....
05-03-2006, 11:39 PM
#32
You guys are making me feel totally inadequate with all this money and engineering you are throwing at the project.
I'm going to have to do some work on my ride to play catch up!
A couple words of advice.
1. Spend adequate time prepping the car with sound dampening. There are a lot of thoughts on this, but the bottom line is that a quieter environment lends itself to a true high fidelity experience and if you are going to spend the big bucks on Focal, Dyanaudio etc you really owe it to yourself to do a good job on sound dampening and to damp the standing waves right behind the speakers themselves.
2. Make sure you seal the area around each speaker so that no air can escape. There will be air leaks but you want them as far away from the front of the cones as you can get them. The leaks close to the speaker will likely be out of phase and will interfere with the bass. Likewise, make sure that you wire all speakers in the same phase.
3. The idea about eliminating the rear tweeters is a rationale one. In a high fidelity rig you want the system to image - throw a soundstage in front of you. Tweeters in the rear will muck with the image big time. If you are going to put the tweeters in the rear you might experiment with reversing the left and right signals in the rear. Seems strange, but what it does is to move the sweet spot of the sound right toward the middle of the car which gives you more of a headphone effect. You won't get the pure L/R separation but it is an interesting effect.
4. You can't fight physics. Small woofers have a tough time creating bass and in a car with all the attendant air leaks etc it's even worse. I have done some pretty good bass in a small sedan by having the woofers mounted to plywood on the back deck and venting into the trunk. For our cars the KLA unit is an interesting solution. It's not the be all and end all, but it works and it's easy to install. The plywood brings up another issue. Speakers should be mounted very securely to a surface that will not vibrate. Robby, the email you sent me where the guy was talking about putting bondo in the arm rest cavity speaks to this issue. If the arm rest and door are stiffer you'll get a better overall result.
5. Don't skimp on the crossovers if you do them yourself. Folks at Madisound and Parts Express will likely lend you a hand if you need advice. Crossovers are very simple little devices by like anything there is an art to it.
I think good audio in a car is kind of like painting or wood refinishing. Half the work is in the preparation and attention to detail. With the money and effort you guys are putting into your intsalls it'll be well worth it to take the extra time to do the sound dampening and seal up as many air leaks etc.
I must say that this little thread has been an inspiration and I'm going to have to roll up my sleeves and make another round of mods to my own rig.
Cheers,
Phil
I'm going to have to do some work on my ride to play catch up!
A couple words of advice.
1. Spend adequate time prepping the car with sound dampening. There are a lot of thoughts on this, but the bottom line is that a quieter environment lends itself to a true high fidelity experience and if you are going to spend the big bucks on Focal, Dyanaudio etc you really owe it to yourself to do a good job on sound dampening and to damp the standing waves right behind the speakers themselves.
2. Make sure you seal the area around each speaker so that no air can escape. There will be air leaks but you want them as far away from the front of the cones as you can get them. The leaks close to the speaker will likely be out of phase and will interfere with the bass. Likewise, make sure that you wire all speakers in the same phase.
3. The idea about eliminating the rear tweeters is a rationale one. In a high fidelity rig you want the system to image - throw a soundstage in front of you. Tweeters in the rear will muck with the image big time. If you are going to put the tweeters in the rear you might experiment with reversing the left and right signals in the rear. Seems strange, but what it does is to move the sweet spot of the sound right toward the middle of the car which gives you more of a headphone effect. You won't get the pure L/R separation but it is an interesting effect.
4. You can't fight physics. Small woofers have a tough time creating bass and in a car with all the attendant air leaks etc it's even worse. I have done some pretty good bass in a small sedan by having the woofers mounted to plywood on the back deck and venting into the trunk. For our cars the KLA unit is an interesting solution. It's not the be all and end all, but it works and it's easy to install. The plywood brings up another issue. Speakers should be mounted very securely to a surface that will not vibrate. Robby, the email you sent me where the guy was talking about putting bondo in the arm rest cavity speaks to this issue. If the arm rest and door are stiffer you'll get a better overall result.
5. Don't skimp on the crossovers if you do them yourself. Folks at Madisound and Parts Express will likely lend you a hand if you need advice. Crossovers are very simple little devices by like anything there is an art to it.
I think good audio in a car is kind of like painting or wood refinishing. Half the work is in the preparation and attention to detail. With the money and effort you guys are putting into your intsalls it'll be well worth it to take the extra time to do the sound dampening and seal up as many air leaks etc.
I must say that this little thread has been an inspiration and I'm going to have to roll up my sleeves and make another round of mods to my own rig.
Cheers,
Phil
05-04-2006, 09:31 AM
#33
Race Car
Thread Starter
Good advice, Phil.
Robby you have email.
I could think of other similes for putting hifi in a car........and they are not pleasant. I may end up cutting back what I put in. You can't get the benefit of premium components like you do at home.
Robby you have email.
I could think of other similes for putting hifi in a car........and they are not pleasant. I may end up cutting back what I put in. You can't get the benefit of premium components like you do at home.
05-04-2006, 03:02 PM
#34
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Bart- I'm sending an e-mail w/pics right now....
Phil- what should I use to harden up that plastic adapter frame? I need something that will stick well & wont crumble off over time- needs to stick well, be smoothed out, & harden well & stay durable... The other guy used some sort of Bondo, but "Bondo" is a pretty generic term.... Also, do you know anything about crossover points, etc for the amp? I have Crossovers w/the speakers, but evidently I have to set points for the amp too & don't know the first thing about that... a lot more complicated than I thought...
thanks
Phil- what should I use to harden up that plastic adapter frame? I need something that will stick well & wont crumble off over time- needs to stick well, be smoothed out, & harden well & stay durable... The other guy used some sort of Bondo, but "Bondo" is a pretty generic term.... Also, do you know anything about crossover points, etc for the amp? I have Crossovers w/the speakers, but evidently I have to set points for the amp too & don't know the first thing about that... a lot more complicated than I thought...
thanks
05-04-2006, 04:34 PM
#35
Drifting
Originally Posted by bart1
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Q9DXFi9...000&I=108607CS
Actually, it's harder to find 5.25"s under 2" depth.
Dynaudios 15W75 and now MW150 are, I think, some of the best engineered spekers ever. They sound good and can handle basically whatever you throw at them. Pretty expensive. I use them in an MTM setup at home. They are just a little over 2" depth. I was hoping to get a 5 1/4" component set in the front holes of the door and not use the current 5.25" hole. Not sure yet. I think their MW170 mounts a bit deeper. Look on www.dynaudiousa.com if you wanna check. You certainly can get good speakers for less $, though.
Actually, it's harder to find 5.25"s under 2" depth.
Dynaudios 15W75 and now MW150 are, I think, some of the best engineered spekers ever. They sound good and can handle basically whatever you throw at them. Pretty expensive. I use them in an MTM setup at home. They are just a little over 2" depth. I was hoping to get a 5 1/4" component set in the front holes of the door and not use the current 5.25" hole. Not sure yet. I think their MW170 mounts a bit deeper. Look on www.dynaudiousa.com if you wanna check. You certainly can get good speakers for less $, though.
Check out the Eclipse SC8355 3-way 5 1/4 component speakers Eclipse SC8355 . I've heard great things about the brand and since I don't know if they'll fit, you can be the guinea pig
These will have a speaker for all 3 holes in each door panel.
05-04-2006, 07:22 PM
#37
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Wait a sec- those Eclipse- the woofer in that is a 5.25"??? The mid looks really small- almost like a woofer w/two tweeters. Planet Audio has a set like that w/6.5" woofers. Hmmmmmm....
You could get a standard 3-way component set & mount the 6.5" under the rear window w/the smaller mid in the forward location & the tweeter above the window switches. You could then put a set of 5.25's under the armrest for the other channels- coax, OR, you could use components & mount the tweeter of that set in the forward mounting point of the plastic mounting frame under the armrest, since it's just an unused blank in the later 968s anyway. You could mix & match mounting locations any way you like w/this arrangement actually. Although I'm really not sure what it would do to the imaging... You'd sort of have the front & rear channels blending in to each other- you certainly would have a hard time controlling the fader- it's all in stereo anyway- might just contribute to this effect...
Doesn't Dynaudio have a set that uses an 8" woofer?
One last thing- I mentioned somewhere before the Diamond Audio 3-way components. You can buy either 4" OR 5.25 components & then buy their add-on 6.5" kit- the X-over connects to the component set's X-over & you end up using both, unlike most 3-way components. BUT, one cool thing is, you can pick whatever size speakers you want, so you could run 6.5 + 4 + tweet or 6.5 + 5.25 + tweet- might even be able to run 6.5 + 6.5 + tweet if you wanted too... I like the idea of 3-way comps, obviously, but many people do fine w/just 2-way comps...
You could get a standard 3-way component set & mount the 6.5" under the rear window w/the smaller mid in the forward location & the tweeter above the window switches. You could then put a set of 5.25's under the armrest for the other channels- coax, OR, you could use components & mount the tweeter of that set in the forward mounting point of the plastic mounting frame under the armrest, since it's just an unused blank in the later 968s anyway. You could mix & match mounting locations any way you like w/this arrangement actually. Although I'm really not sure what it would do to the imaging... You'd sort of have the front & rear channels blending in to each other- you certainly would have a hard time controlling the fader- it's all in stereo anyway- might just contribute to this effect...
Doesn't Dynaudio have a set that uses an 8" woofer?
One last thing- I mentioned somewhere before the Diamond Audio 3-way components. You can buy either 4" OR 5.25 components & then buy their add-on 6.5" kit- the X-over connects to the component set's X-over & you end up using both, unlike most 3-way components. BUT, one cool thing is, you can pick whatever size speakers you want, so you could run 6.5 + 4 + tweet or 6.5 + 5.25 + tweet- might even be able to run 6.5 + 6.5 + tweet if you wanted too... I like the idea of 3-way comps, obviously, but many people do fine w/just 2-way comps...
05-04-2006, 10:41 PM
#38
Hi Robby,
I think you have a variety of options for the 'bondo'. One option is epoxy. Mix up a batch and just pour it the back side of the arm rest. I think they make epoxy-based body filler and that would work too. I'm not sure that I'd fill it up, but rather just coat the inside maybe 1/8 to 1/4 an inch. Note - I have NOT done this previously so I'm winging it. However I would not want to fill it up all the way only to find out is was pliable enough to fit agains the door snuggle or something. I'd fill it up part way and then use dynamat or something else if I need more to dampen it. The big thing is to dampen all the vibrations that will be resonating through the arm rest if you have that speakers sitting under it.
I'll need to know more abuot the amps to give you some guidance, but the amps are easy relative to building passive crosovers for the speakers.
Phil
I think you have a variety of options for the 'bondo'. One option is epoxy. Mix up a batch and just pour it the back side of the arm rest. I think they make epoxy-based body filler and that would work too. I'm not sure that I'd fill it up, but rather just coat the inside maybe 1/8 to 1/4 an inch. Note - I have NOT done this previously so I'm winging it. However I would not want to fill it up all the way only to find out is was pliable enough to fit agains the door snuggle or something. I'd fill it up part way and then use dynamat or something else if I need more to dampen it. The big thing is to dampen all the vibrations that will be resonating through the arm rest if you have that speakers sitting under it.
I'll need to know more abuot the amps to give you some guidance, but the amps are easy relative to building passive crosovers for the speakers.
Phil
05-05-2006, 01:24 PM
#39
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Phil- Actually, what I meant was not to fill the armrest, but if you remove the plastic mounting frame that the 5.25" speaker sits in- that's what I'm talking about- it's very thin plastic- there are lot's of little indentures, etc, in the backside- what Crazy-Eddie did was to fill in the backside of this piece & smooth it all out- this made the mounting frame much harder & more solid- I think it created a better enclosure underneath the armrest- anyway, this is what I'm referring too- I'd be afraid to fill in the door cavity under the armrest- you could spill stuff down in there & get it all over your window or window regulator & pay hell to get it off- although, maybe a thin coating on the door panel, covering the entire area behind the palstic frame... hmmmmmm.... maybe that would help too....?
The amp I have is a 4-ch Alpine F345 V12- I can get you any specs you need- for that matter, I could copy the instructions & mail them to you- I really can't figure this out & really just want to get it set & mounted & forget it- I've got at least a few more days of just sound deadening to do- that's a slow process- also having to make some more speaker adapter plates, etc... it will be a week or so at least before I'm ready to mount the amp....
The amp I have is a 4-ch Alpine F345 V12- I can get you any specs you need- for that matter, I could copy the instructions & mail them to you- I really can't figure this out & really just want to get it set & mounted & forget it- I've got at least a few more days of just sound deadening to do- that's a slow process- also having to make some more speaker adapter plates, etc... it will be a week or so at least before I'm ready to mount the amp....
