joseph mitro

944s aren't valuable and no, that car is not too nice to cut up.

i totally agree with TD in DC......it's much cheaper to buy a ready-made track car than to spend time and money doing it....unless you like the project and the challenge

VaSteve

Without reading everyone elses posts....What TD said x2. Even taking a "cheap" road car and turning it into a nice DE'er was a lot of work. I managed to spin the road bearing on my first event. I have been fighting the crusty old parts for the past 3 days just to get the pan off to inspect.

If you really want to build a car, as in turn wrenches, you can do it...especially if you only want a nice DE car. If you want a spec car, find one that's "done" - ask TD, it will still need something.

ibkevin

Another thumbs up for TD. I've been to Tim's and he has a very good handle on what a good spec car needs and the shortest distance to get there.

A sad story... a guy in Long Beach has a 9/10 951, except for the damn roll bar in it. It's shame that paint got anywhere the track.

Eyal 951

yes, thats true. My ultimate goal would be to get as fast lap times as possible, so the sled that will do it the fastest in my price range would be the way to go. A spec Miata is faster then Spec 944, though still slower then the Honda's. That may be another option. Any way you look at it, as long as your having fun, its still cool.

Legoland951

Just where are you getting your numbers? I looked up here http://www.hondachallenge.com/track_records.php where H4 crx got 1:35 at willow springs and its the track record, which is the same time a 944 spec car is running. Tim Comeau did a 1:35 as you can see in this thread http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic....96148b572a6954.

M758

Well,
Being the new Az 944 spec director and someone who has been in the Series since before day 1, let me give you my advice.


Firstly Build vs Buy.

If you want a project car and will be doing all the wrenching yourself the answer is obvious. Build. It will be cheaper and you will know the car 7k will do it.

I built my car from the ground up. Every nut, bolt & paint work I have personally taken off and put, back on atleast once throughout my car's life as an autocross/DE/then race car. I started building my car in the Spring of 2000. By the fall of 2000 it was running. Then over the next year and 1/2 I prepped into a race car. April 2002 was the cars first race and mine as well. I along with my father's help have worked hard on this car over the years. When anything has come up at the track we have solved it. In those 5 and 1/2 years of track use the car has had failures at the track, but only once have a missed a race and once have I had a DNF. Over those years I have missed maybe 4-5 sessions from repairs in 100 track & autocross days.

The reason the car is so "reliable" is we can fix just about anything on the car because we built the car. So little things never slow us down. Also from a cost perspective I could not race if I had to pay someone for labor.


If however you can't or won't... then BUY. Buying fully build raced car is best way to have one. At least 50% of the cost to build a 944 spec car is simple labor. If you need to farm it out it will cost money. Buying a complete car means this cost is sunk up front and you know what it is. Sure there will be additional expenses, but these are "maintence". Also any built car will be sorted to degree. This means all the little things tha fail on a 20 year beat-up car are likely to have been fixed. As for cost build cars range from 7k for very basic partial builds to 13k for fully built with lots of nice "extras" like pretty paint and spares packages.


Now... is that car too "nice" to build into a track car? Well probalby, but that does mean that there may be fewer problems down the road. Sadly while it would great to keep all these nice 944s as street cars... well lets face facts. Build that car into 944 spec car and will be work 10 to 12k. Right now what maybe 4k if you find the right buyer and it really is a pretty as it seems? Unlike in days past if you turn it into a spec car you actually INCREASE its value.

Hope this helps some.

BTW... the price to ship a car from Az to Northern Cal is about 1500 or so. Too much for a 2k car, but no so bad for a 10k car.

M758

Don't forget that the CRX runs at about 2200lbs with driver and has similar to the groud hp numbers as a 944 spec. Racing with the hondas they are fast due to accelration not due to cornering prowess. Plus H4 is not a spec class by anymeans. What is important about this is you can be out spend greatly in the class. In 944 spec being outspent is not major issue. Even if you through a huge sum of money at a 944 spec car it won't get any faster. This class prides itself by running on Junkyard motors and home rebuilds. We have one race who owns a shop and has access to a racing budget larger than all the other 70 racers combined. His car is no fast than then the others. The driver however is fast. Running two races per day the other in a GT3 cup helps alot. Really the only place you can be outspent is seat time. Really if you have time and money to be at the track every weekend of the month you will be fast. That is the ONLY way to be outspent in the class.

VaSteve

I'm partially going to go back on my advice from last night (I spun a bearing in my first outing and have been working on it until I was frustrated.)

I have a basically stock 911 SC Targa. I did a couple of events with it but never felt comfortable taking it to the limits for the simple reason that I couldn't emotionally walk away from it.

I wanted to build a track/DE car...or a "pretend race car" as I call it at home. It's not a spec car or anything you could race. I like to work with my hands and I get a satistfaction out of accomplishing something over a weekend when often it takes a long time to accomplish a little at work.

I should have bought a car that needed a little less stuff but it was fun building it up as a nice DE car. I did about 90% of the work myself - farmed out an alignment. I felt 100% comfortable running it as hard as I could because I knew all of the stuff I had done to it.

Granted, I spun a bearing which I'm now trying to get apart. When I'm done, I will be able to have the confidence in that motor because I will have done the work myself. Aside from cost, there's a certain satisfaction in being able to do something and take it out and using it as opposed to just buying something and using it.

Even when I'm out in the garage swearing at intermediate shafts that won't come off and tie rod ends that have turned to dust (both happened) I know that when I'm done it will all be worth while. Aside from the cost, you just have to decide on what you want out of the experience.

Regarding buying a $2000 car to sell of parts... you might recoup a little, but I don't see a great market unless the stuff you're selling is uber-nice. There are too many of these out there that people are parting.

M758

Steve,
These are are some very important points. The reason I started to build my car back 6 years ago was for the experience of it. I was told at the time "buy a prepared cars as it will be cheaper" However I had a wrecked low miles 924S and had aquired and old beat up 84 944. So I had all the major parts I needed for a project. At the time I did not know much about working on cars. I started by basicly being an apprentice to my father (MBZ dealer tech for years) and it was "our project" and it was to be "our car". Well it was lots of fun and intended to be used for autocross and DE. Racing only came later on after my father's interest in driving wained.

I started racing as follow on to Autocross and DE with my competitive drive. I picked up on the spec class because of two things. 1) I had a car close to the rules. 2) the intent and spirit of the class was right up my alley. Fun equal racing on a budget.

Now for me building is the only way to go as part of the fun IS DOING THE WORK. I sadly have spun 2 rod bearings over these past few years. One resulted in a holed block. The other was repairable. In both cases I have learned more after the issue and made the car stronger. The only things I have not done on my race car have been cornerbalance and the weld in cage.

My attitude is to go out and race, have fun and if something breaks... Well I just need to fix it. Over the years I have aquired enough parts to almost build a complete spare car race car. The other great thing is my father has had chance to pass down the weath of knowledge on car repair/maintence that will stay with me for the rest of my life. Before this track/race car project I never had the desire to learn all of things I have. Now I have learned much and also have spent 6 great years of time sharing with my father. Really cool! :8

Oh... I also have had fun racing too.

VaSteve

Sounds like we're of the same mind. I would have liked to make a few more events before it broke.

BTW: What's the secret of the bolts on the passenger side engine mount. I have tried every wrench I own...

TD in DC

These are all good points but, ultimately, whether it is wise to buy a finished car or build your own depends largely upon (1) how much time you have before you want the car to be ready; and (2) whether you have the time, skills, tools and space to do the work yourself. If you want the car to be ready now, or if you will need to pay a shop to do any significant amount of work due to your lack of time, tools or space to do the work yourself, there is absolutely NO question that you should buy a finished car.

I enjoy working on cars, and I think it would be fun IF I had the time, space and tools to do so. At this point in my life, I just don't, and I have had to come to accept this.

I do "think" I disagree about the significance of the benefit of "knowing what you have" that you get when you build the car yourself. When you buy a finished car, you can do a PPI and examine all of the big things. 944s really are not all "that" complicated. If you buy a finished car and somethng breaks, you can get your knowledge by fixing it then. Sure, it might take you longer since you didn't build it yourself the first time, but then again, think of all the time you saved by not building it yourself the first time!!!!!

My only point is that building a car from scratch nearly always takes more time and money than newbies predict. That cannot be stressed enough.

Of course, the same is true for a pre-built car. However, depending upon the value of your time -- or the labor costs of shops in your area -- it might be cheaper in the end.

The bottom line is that there is no such thing as a "cheap" Porsche . . . you just need to decide when and how it is best for you to pay: up front or along the way, both in terms of cash and time.

VaSteve

Absolutely! Someone described the 944 to me last weekend like a bullet through your wallet. Makes a small entry hole and a HUGE exit hole.

M758

Well, I got a 13 mm ratching box end wrench just for that. However with really old mounts they tend to collapse leaving little space for even that. So the process is rather ugly.

I have a few 13mm wrenches. open end, box end, thin, thick, offset box, and shorty. I think I have used all of them on that bolt. Sucked, but having done motor mounts on 4 cars I have found away. The toughest was on my pristine 84 944 show car. It had the original one with the bolt/nut combo and had collapsed so much I could not get wrench on the the nut. I got it eventually, but it took lots of forcing and was not much fun. I think it was 2 hrs just for those two bolts.


On the bearings... well when I lost mine the first time(Nov 2002) it was in race at 85 MPH in banked oval corner. Felt it drag bad then the sound of marbles followed by a spin on my own oil. I was really upset as this was my 47k mile 924S motor, but that lead to my first engine rebuild when I used the coolant mixed/ crap motor orginally in my junk 84 944 and completed in 5 weeks. I won 25 races on that rebuilt motor and still run with it now (it does have different rod bearings now however).

VaSteve

I'm glad I chose to got to bed instead. I never considered it may have collapsed some. I guess I'll add this to my "while I'm in there list".

Original poster...are you paying attention?

M758

I agree 100%

I completely disagree.
I can't tell you how many times little things have failed at the track on my car over the years. I have been able to quickly replace parts and keep the car running not losing valuable track time due my skill and understanding of the car. I have caught problems early many times at home or at the start of a track day and been able to fix them fast and stay on track. My latest example is Cal speedway. Rain was expected. So I put my wiper on the car friday am and tested it. Well it did not work. Then I check for power at the motor. Nope no power at the motor. So my solution was to direct wire the wiper motor and run switch inside the car. 35 minutes later I had wipers. Ok one speed only and they did not "reset", but I had wipers and they worked great. No panic, just fix the stuff and move on. Of course I still need to trace the issue, but I did not lose any track time over it. Then there was the off and front control arm at willow springs. I went off in qualfying and the car came back on the hook. I qualfied on pole for the race and pulled the mangled control arm installed a new one complete with race bushings, use BFG on the bent tie-rod, did a home job aligment and won the race that day and the one on sunday. Most folks would have gone home. Then there was the leaking radiator replaced at the track, the leaking fuel rail replaced at the track and all the competitior cars I have help fix and return to racing while at the track. The only reason I had a DNS one race was my cv bolts backed out exiting the pits on the warm up lap. had it happend in a practice session I would have had it fixed by race time.