AndyK

I like the equal dollar comparrison. Looking at late 944's, costing $58k in todays money, I would think ANY new $58k Porsche would out-handle a 20 year old 944, period. Cayman or Boxster S's wouldn't CRUSH my 89 S2? That's hard to believe!

Not bashing the 944/951/968 line. But if Porsche hasn't learned a few things in the last 20 years, they wouldn't be in business today.

Blue S2

Cayman I have a feeling will take our cars everywhich way from Sunday! Just a guess though...

Dilberto

After all these years- our cars are still one of the most balanced, finest-handling production cars ever made. Porsche had a stroke of genius with the rear transaxle/torque tube configuraton. Still- no other front-engined, rear-drive car possess what is nothing more than a divided clutch and transmission, seperated by a whippy steel bar, encased in a three-bearing-loaded pipe. Remember, guys....."there is no substitute" My 951 in bone-stock form handles so well, I can speed on highways, and still lose persuing cops easily on a series of maze-like, switch back maneuvering! Only my 2004 Aprilia Cafe racer turns better....

-Zach
"Dedicated to the car that saved the Marque"

Z-man

There are two big factors in handling: weight and weight location.

A lighter, more nimble car like the Elise, Miata, Integra can be more easily setup to handle better than a heavier car, like the Vette, Boxster, Cayman...etc.

A car whose weight distribution is an ideal 50/50 typically handles better. But there's more than one way to achieve a 50/50 distribution - either move all the weight to the middle of the car (MR2, 914, Boxster) which gives the car a low polar moment of inertia, or move all the weight to the outside of the car (944, Vette) which gives the car a high polar moment of inertia.

With a mid-engine 50/50 car, you have a car that turns on a dime, but beware - push too far, and it will spin like a top. With a 50/50 car whose transaxle is in the back, you have a car that handles well, but may not have such a crisp turnin, but is far more forgiving when pushed to the limits.

One big reason the FWD cars don't handle as well is the fact that the drivetrain sits in the front end of the car. (Ya can't put a rear transaxle on a FWD car!) A nose heavy car tends to understeer more, while a rear-heavy car like the 911, has a tendancy towards oversteer.

Locating the weight down low in the chassis also benefits handling. Both Porsche and Subaru use boxser engines, which, due to the configuration of the motor, can be placed a few inches lower than a conventional engine. (That would explain why the WRX is so nimble).

(Sorry for the long disortation on weight/weight distribution)

Anyway, back to the original question. Yes, there are many sports cars out there, including a few FWD 'sporty' cars and AWD rally bred pocket rockets that can out-handle a 944. The current king of handling is, IMHO, the Lotus Elise/Exige. Light, 50/50 weight distribution, and it has a low polar moment of inertia.

Other modern cars that have the potential to out-handle the 944, (IMHO) are: the Miata, the WRX/EVO, Vette, Boxster/Cayman, 911, BMW 3-series and Z4, Mazda RX8, Mini Cooper/CooperS, and possible the new GTI. That said, it's pretty amazing that our cars, with their rear-torsion bar design, can still hold their own today in terms of handing. There is a reason why our cars, especially the 951, 944S2, and 968, rank high in SCCA stock classification - they got what it takes. Note: the 951, 944S2, and 968 all run in B-stock, against the following cars (partial list): BMW M-coupe, M3 (E30 & E36), Mazda RX7 Turbo (87-91), Benz SLK, Mini Cooper S w/ John Works Package, Nissan 350Z, Toyota MR2 Turbo, and the following P-cars: 911 CS, many 911s including the 964 chassis, 914/6's, and 928's. Quite a group to run against. Is the 944 outgunned? In some cases, yes. But dont' be fooled- the 944 can put on quite a show!

-Z-man.

eohrnberger

And it's running against all of that with a mere 4 banger! Imagine that! All those other cars are 6's and 8's (of course you can count the RX, it's just plain weird in that department! )

Tom R.

Hate to **** in the cornflakes here guys but,

Back in the late 80s early 90s porsche was on the verge of bankruptcy. Why you ask?

Primitive production methods (translates to hand made).

tolerances were not as close, labor was/is expensive, etc. etc.

add the fact that the dollar/dmark ratio was abismal and you have a base 944 with 150hp stickering for about 40k while a loaded RX7 turbo is 25k. My RX7 convertible stickered for 27 or 28k. It came standard with everything. A 944 convertible was twice that price, didnt have sport seats, the CD, headrest speakers, LSD, etc, etc.

Point of this post, the stickers mean very little. If a GTO today with better build quality (tolerences, panel gaps, etc) than a 944 and 400hp and more goodies than a 944 stickers for 33k, then the 944 today could be made for the same 33k.

Got my nomex underoos on. Go ahead.

As for handling, who cares, just drive it and enjoy it. or use the search function.

I think if my GTO was set up with better sways, bushings, shocks (with identical shocks on the S2) it would keep up with it on all but the tightest tracks. It would feel numb as novacaine but still keep up even though it is about 1000lbs heavier and a lot bigger, a lot bigger.

Z-man

Whoa there Tom. The REASON I enjoy driving my 944 is because it handles so well. That's the whole point of it!

To each his own, I suppose. There are folks who enjoy boulevard cruisers, others like to hop up their cars. Still others go racing. And of course, there are those who open their shirts to expose their gold chains and hairy chests, and go driving their camaros, or maybe their new GTO's.

I'll take a 15 year old, perfectly balanced, globs of torque at low RPM's car anyday, thank you very much.

-Z.

yellowline

The Vette comes darn close. RWD, separated drivetrain, torque tube.

PorscheDreamerPA

Quote:
Porsche had a stroke of genius with the rear transaxle/torque tube configuraton. Still- no other front-engined, rear-drive car possess what is nothing more than a divided clutch and transmission, seperated by a whippy steel bar, encased in a three-bearing-loaded pipe.

Alfa Romeo Alfetta/GTV6...pretty much the same setup.

Tom R.

Thank you Z. Now I am glad I got a SA rated helmet sunday.

Metro allows M helmets at their DEs, but I heard a rumor NNJR requires SA. Now I may just have to join you at a DE with my gold chains protectinng my hairy chest and open a can of whoopass on you!!!

Can I bring the miata to really embarrass you (or save a lot of $$ repairing the damage I do to my car)?
Stroke of genius maybe, but Porsche doesn't get the credit for introducing it in 1977. Pontiac doesnt get the credit for introducing it in the 63 lemans/tempest. I forgot who gets the credit, but it was done in the 30s I believe.

And why are you talking about the 944s configuration with a dedication to the Boxster?

ClassJ

Well, I hate to crush your whole gold chain theory, but along with the 944 I also have a couple musclecars. No gold chains or hariy chest sticking out of top of shirts here. And modified, some of these musclecars are pulling 1G on a skidpad and while no porsche by far handling wise, are certainly very respectable in terms of handing to go with the straight line push.

Not to bash the new GTO much as it isnt that bad performance and value wise and I really dont want to talk badly about anyones car, but if you have ever spent much time around the original GTO's, after seeing the new one you quickly form the "australian jelly bean" opinion. Not a horrible car, but having the GTO badge stuck to the side is sacraligeous IMO. Not that the new one doesent handle or stop better than the original, it is the look of it that is just so off base to any GTO lover.

It is amazing how quick some people are to bash classic musclecars and their owners. All know is that none of the above cars mentioned are fetching 6 to 7 figures at auction these days. Even though those paying some of those prices are clearly somewhat insane.

ClassJ

I agree, the 63 tempest was the first as far as I know. Had independent suspension as well.

Whats more interesting is that due to reliability and I guess customer response they dropped it the next year. But thats how GM was back then, they tried an idea, if it didnt work out as hoped they usually dropped it and didnt take the time to do a rework. But they usually always end up back there at some point.

Z-man

Bring. it. on. There's still room at the Lime Rock I event - April 14-15. We'll see who is whose whipping boy.

FOR THE RECORD - I'm just bustin' Tom's chops - we're good friends -- don't let the online banter fool you. Also: I have a lot of respect for muscle cars and muscle car fans. Again, I was just busting Tom's chops. AND: if you want to drive around with an opened shirt, hairy chest and gold chains, that's fine too.

-Z.

ClassJ

Why do the words,

"Not that theres anything wrong with that"

come to mind.

Tom R.

Z
I just sent my money in for april 14 at pocono. send me a copy of your schedule.

classj,
I had a 68 firebird convertible for 29 years until a few weeks ago. I have a 04 GTO. You may think it is sacrilegious to put the GTO badge on the monaro. I agree it should not have been called a GTO. Calling the monaro a gto is an insult to the monaro. The original gto was and always will be a grocery getter lemans with a big motor and some silly scoops. too bad they didnt upgrade the brakes and suspension when they put the big motors in those cars. the monaro is a world class car.

now i enjoy old muscle cars too. I just dont buy the hype surrounding the use of the name, hence charger, challenger, etc. Who cares what they call it today, just make it a good car.

When I sold the firebird i dropped it off at my wrench to have all the fluids changed. on my way home I decided to punch it one last time. the tank just hit the half mark (which affected handling). as i went into a sweeper i said to myself "what a hunk of junk, this thing handles terribly, is cramped, the steering wheel is too narrow etc." not knocking the car, and not that there is anything wrong with that. Just that the current gto is so much better than the old.