NineFourFourNeophyte

****THIS IS A REPOST FROM 944 & 944S2 forum****

hello,

i'm new to the site but have looked on at other postings and have found this site to be helpful. i'm hoping that i can get some of the same help with a problem i am having. i recently bought an '87 944 na and drove over 220miles to my home but experienced some problems at the end of my trip that ultimately rendered the vehicle undriveable. the car was sitting idle for at least 3months prior to this drive.

my car starts fine but when trying to change gears, i simply can't, instead i get a grinding sound, regardless of which gear i try to engage. in my last maneuver to park i had to turn the motor off, engage the gear, while of course keeping the clutch engaged, then start. however after starting but before letting up on the clutch, the car started moving on its own. so it seems like the clutch is not working at all.

a friend of mine who's has and worked with 944's looked at the car and he too could not determine what was wrong. i'll say this, the master/slave cylinders seems fine, when the clutch is pressed, there is about 20mm of movement on the yoke, movement on the clutch bearing and we can see the fingers of the plate flex, so it seems that the cylinders are working and moving all that it should, but of course still no gear action. we've opened the transmission oil fill plug and found what you see in the pics in the transmission and it puzzles us. what in the world is this and does anyone have an idea of what is the problem?
this is a project we're trying to work on tomorrow, so any help would be appreciated. thank you.

nffn

1 - response from Daniel Dudley
It sounds like your clutch is not disengageing. It also looks like you have water in your oil.

2 - my (nffn) response to Daniel Dudley
yep, when the thing is running, gears can't disengage. we did suspect it to be water, but we don't see any obvious inlets for water, is this just through condensation of some type?
what we want to try is flushing with oil and then refilling with swepco.
what do you think?
thanks.

3 - response from 944kid
Friend had the same problem on his Prelude. Slave cylinder needed to be bled.(or replaced, this was a while ago, so I'm sorry, I forgot.)One of those fixed it. I am not sure why the oil (say: oel) is yellow. Dan says water, I'd tend to belive him.

-the kid

4 - my (nffn) response as of now
followup 11/21/05- well the transmission was flushed a couple times but it didn’t help completely, flushing still had this foamy type mixture, we flushed by filling, then starting the motor and draining.
While the car was on stands, we started the motor and tried changing gears, after all flushing all gears were changing with the motor running, but draining still showed foamy type oil.

So the gears can change while the motor is running but it still seems that the gears do not disengage when the clutch is pressed, why? This is because while the motor was running and a gear is selected, pressing in the clutch and pressing down the brake, to simulate a case of stopping in traffic, it stalled the car as if the clutch is not being pressed at all.
We compared the movement of the master / slave cylinder on a 944turbo and saw what seemed to be the same amount of travel on the rod, making us think that all what we see is normal. So at this point though I fear it, it seems like I have a clutch disc or pressure plate problem.
Has anyone else experienced this or may have an idea of what else may be problem?

Thanks,
nffn.

camelot

The only other thing I can think of is if the pilot brg is frozen to the torque tube shaft. This will cause the shaft to turn even if the clutch is depressed and releasing. If your sure the to brg is moving, then it should rule out a broken fork. I would try to see if I could turn the torque tube shaft with the clutch depressed, and the rear wheels in the air. Without the engine turning you should still be able to turn the shaft with the clutch depressed. As always use safe habits under there!.

ibkevin

My vote goes to suspended water also. Replace the oil, drive a couple hundred miles and change it again.

NineFourFourNeophyte

Camelot,
actually i did have the car suspended and have someone try turning the shaft and they were able to when the gear was engaged and the clutch was depressed, of course with the engine off. which is why this is definitely confusing. And yes the brg did does move because while the car was up i did start it up and change gears to simulate a drive around the block.

about the flushing, ibkevin, i'll do that after i can move it around.

BIG ADDITIONAL INFO HERE - while the car was suspended on stands, i was able to start in neutral and shift through all gears, but when the car was fully on the ground, i couldn't engage any gears. so while it is suspended gears change, but on the ground gears don't dis/engage.

nffn.

camelot

This may sound crazy , but I would try putting the emergency brake on with the wheels up and try to shift. I think this would be the same as on the ground. If the wheels turned while it was up and took the "bind" out of the trans, it would shift, but not on the ground. If it shifts with the brake on then I would think there is a binding in the shift linkage somewhere when the car is down as things move with the body. Just trying to help.

KuHL 951

You don't say where you are from but just a though; is there any chance this was a recovered flood vehicle and the top of the transaxle and lower clutch area might have been submerged? There's a pressure vent on top of the trans. that would let in water if covered.

tifosiman

Water in the trans fluid is not going to cause this problem. No way.

It sounds like a bad pilot bearing.

camelot

Nffn, What you discribe seems odd. 1. with car up in air you can shift. Yes with clutch dragging wheels will turn and synchro with engine speed allowing forward gear shifting. I'll bet it will grind trying to get into reverse though. 2. Can't shift when car is on ground. Yes, wheels can't turn , and clutch is not releasing enough to allow gear meshing or synchro. This is where putting the emergency brake, would simlate the car being on the ground. BUT, with car up, clutch depessed, trans in gear, if clutch was dragging, you would not be able to turn torque tube shaft. It would be locked against flywheel and you would be trying to turn engine over. It would be the same as a bad pilot brg. This would also be trying to match the torque shaft to engine speed and therefore cause problems shifting. I hope I didn't lose you. I've seen clutch discs come apart and "stack" a few pieces on one side of disc. This causes only half of the clutch to disengage,Hence full movement of fork, but not all fingers get full release. This also can cause hard, no shift situation. I hope this helps .

Kurt R

I just had this same problem in another car, not a p-car. The pressure plate was broken and even though you felt resistance when you pressed the clutch pedal the clutch did not disengage completely. So it seems to me you have two problems:
1) something is wrong with the clutch, clutch disk, pressure plate, pilot bearing. That's what is keeping you from shifting with the car on the ground.
2) Water or something got in the transmission. Hopefully after you flush it out nothing will be wrong inside, but I'd still look for the reason water got in there in the first place. It should be easier to look at after you drop the transmission on your way to replacing the clutch.

NineFourFourNeophyte

hello,

thanks for all the suggestions, right now though, I can’t work on the car during the week, so I can only test and report on the different remedies you recommend after the weekend.

Camelot – I need to change the handbrake cable before I test one method you mentioned. Also, I can’t remember if I did get it into reverse, I did have some problems with that gear but can’t remember if it did finally go in. I did think about this at one time, and glad to see you mention it … clutch is not releasing enough to allow gear meshing or synchro … in this you point to a possible bad pilot brg or disc. Further on your description of broken fingers stacking up makes me curious to see what is happening in there. I have one bit of info I forgot to mention at the end that may go along with this and make it clearer.

Rockfan4 – broken pressure plate, definitely seems like you and Camelot may be on to something there. Yeah we’ll try finding out about water in the transmission, but Kuhl951 points to a vent on the top side of the tranny.

Kuhl951 – I live in NY and I’ve had the vehicle for some months now and I got it from Maryland, it seemed fine then and neither then nor now do I see any other evidence of the rear being submerged. But I’ll keep that in mind.

Thanks all, will try on the weekend but if you have additional suggestions, I would definitely like hearing about it. One more bit of info – while the car was on the ground and running, I’d press the clutch all the way down and try engaging a gear, the gear won’t ever go in, but just on the edge or gate of where the gears are if I try engaging, the car starts rolling.

I’ll definitely have to pull it down and look into what is the cause of the problem.

nffn

black944 turbo

I had the exact same thing on a car that sat for many years. Did you say that you drove the car with the clutch disengaging? If so different problem. Mine was that the pressure plate had rusted and was not moving. Once I jerked the car forward and back a few times it came loose.

black944 turbo

BTW, is that engine oil or trans oil. That looks to thin to be trans, if engine DO NOT RUN THE CAR ANYMORE. That more than likely means you have a blown head gasket.

$pit

Are we pulling the transmission and clutch on saturday?

NineFourFourNeophyte

hi,

so today we pulled down the transmisson and clutch to find out exactly what was the problem.
first of, this car's mechanics has most if not all the original factory installed parts and is 19 yrs old, so we encountered the plastic gear shaft protector in the transmission which some places don't mention and not everyone knows about (we ultimately cut this out) and loosing bolts and nuts which had rusted was difficult.

after pulling out the gear stick, transmission, transmission tube, bellhousing and clutch, we found the problem, the center ring on the clutch was destroyed. (this is the achilies heel of the original clutch) The clutch was the original from the date of manufacture since '86 and though the car has only 67K miles on it, the car was parked for some months before i got it and drove it, so it was weak when i started driving it and finally gave way, after 220 miles. anyhow the clutch has to be replaced, as you can see in the pic the condition of the clutch (notice our rennlist garage sticker?)

since the transmission had all of the seals and only the vent at the top, we're still puzzled about what seems like water in the transmission, how did it get there? but we'll work on that after the clutch.

we'll be working on this again tomorrow, so anyone feel like dropping by in freeport long island tomorrow to hang out, talk about porsches and give us a hand?

thanks for all the advice so far fellow rennlisters.

nffn.

Luis de Prat

Conclusion: If it feels like a bad clutch, it probably is.

Whatever you do, don't put another rubber-centered clutch in there. Get one with a spring-centered disc from SACHS or Centerforce. Look at all the lining left on that original disc!