Oil Leak - Loose front crank seal
10-31-2005, 01:11 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
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Oil Leak - Loose front crank seal
Ok, so I've had a small pesky oil leak somewhere on the bottom of the engine for a while now, ever since I had the motor out and rebuilt it. It was only a few drops now and then so I didn't worry about it. On a long ride yesterday, I could smell oil smoke a little more than normal when I came to a stop and when I checked the garage floor this morning, there were three small puddles. Oh crap !
Sooo, I took all the covers off the bottom so I could take a look, and boy was I surprised. The leak is at the front crank seal and it was sticking out of its position in the oil pump about 2-3 mm. That's not right. So I put a screwdriver on it to pry it back into position, and it popped back in with zero, nadda, no resistance. That's not right ! I started the car and watched it, and the seal is rotating with the pump drive sleeve that goes through it, but more slowly than the crankshaft. It's like its freewheeling in there. That's not right, the seal is supposed to be tight and still !!
Anybody ever seen this before ? The seal is quite new, replaced when I last did the belts and front reseal job, maybe 10k miles ago. Did I install the seal incorrectly? Was I supposed to seal it with something?
That bites - now I need to pull the front of the motor off again...oh yeah, I forgot, I like wrenching on these cars...
Sooo, I took all the covers off the bottom so I could take a look, and boy was I surprised. The leak is at the front crank seal and it was sticking out of its position in the oil pump about 2-3 mm. That's not right. So I put a screwdriver on it to pry it back into position, and it popped back in with zero, nadda, no resistance. That's not right ! I started the car and watched it, and the seal is rotating with the pump drive sleeve that goes through it, but more slowly than the crankshaft. It's like its freewheeling in there. That's not right, the seal is supposed to be tight and still !!
Anybody ever seen this before ? The seal is quite new, replaced when I last did the belts and front reseal job, maybe 10k miles ago. Did I install the seal incorrectly? Was I supposed to seal it with something?
That bites - now I need to pull the front of the motor off again...oh yeah, I forgot, I like wrenching on these cars...
10-31-2005, 01:39 AM
#2
Hey Man
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Brad,
That's not good at all. It doesn't require a sealer as far as I know. I know there is some question about the color of the rear seal but not the front. If it spins like you say I would worry. It's bitch to tear down now but the pump shaft sleeve isn't supposed to move. I have my miscellaneous drips and take them with a grain of salt. Until something effects oil pressure it's just a nuisance you have to deal with when the time is right. I'm still trying to figure out why the drip from the front seal burns itself on the exhaust. The 83 has a bad front seal and the only smell I get is from the leak at the rear of the camtower, the rest of the evidence is in the driveway when it sits for over a week. At least you have the Winter to mull it over/repair before the start of better weather.
That's not good at all. It doesn't require a sealer as far as I know. I know there is some question about the color of the rear seal but not the front. If it spins like you say I would worry. It's bitch to tear down now but the pump shaft sleeve isn't supposed to move. I have my miscellaneous drips and take them with a grain of salt. Until something effects oil pressure it's just a nuisance you have to deal with when the time is right. I'm still trying to figure out why the drip from the front seal burns itself on the exhaust. The 83 has a bad front seal and the only smell I get is from the leak at the rear of the camtower, the rest of the evidence is in the driveway when it sits for over a week. At least you have the Winter to mull it over/repair before the start of better weather.
10-31-2005, 01:43 AM
#3
Wax On, Wax Off
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Yeah, that's no good. Most I can think of is that it's a bad seal... I say replace that, and the sleeve for the oil pump/crankshaft drive. it's a good thing, trust me.
10-31-2005, 01:51 AM
#4
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Yeah, I'll definitely replace it, and use a little Curil T to seal it good. My only concern is that it has worn the machined surface of the oil pump from spinning in there, and a seal may never fit tight in there again. I'll figure something out. I have a few spare oil pumps, but don't really want to have to replace the pump !
Steve, you were asking about how the oil could get to the exhaust - well, it is running along the length on the pan, until it comes to the cooling fins and then the wind blows it all over the bottom of the car. The exhaust system is covered in oil. There's even a few drops that made it all the way back to the muffler - yes, the muffler at the back of the car !
I have a suspicion that I have an oil pressure problem. Every once in a while, the gauge goes a little about the 5 mark. This is only when cold. I put in a new OPRV and used the alignment tool. I'll need to check on that too when I have it apart.
Thanks for your help guys...
Steve, you were asking about how the oil could get to the exhaust - well, it is running along the length on the pan, until it comes to the cooling fins and then the wind blows it all over the bottom of the car. The exhaust system is covered in oil. There's even a few drops that made it all the way back to the muffler - yes, the muffler at the back of the car !
I have a suspicion that I have an oil pressure problem. Every once in a while, the gauge goes a little about the 5 mark. This is only when cold. I put in a new OPRV and used the alignment tool. I'll need to check on that too when I have it apart.
Thanks for your help guys...
10-31-2005, 01:59 AM
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Brad, Toss the new seal on before you use some goop to hold it in. You're not supposed to glue those in with anything... so if you can afford to, don't glue it. check the fit. Then, DEFINATELY replace the oil pump drive sleeve. check yours, I'm willing to bet you've got a nice score around it, like all these cars do at this age, and maybe it grabbed the seal, and started spinning it, wore it down so it didn't fit properly anymore... sounds far fetched, but it MIGHT have happened.
10-31-2005, 02:44 AM
#6
Burning Brakes
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Thanks Geoff - I changed the drive sleeve when I changed the seal so it has less than 10K miles on it. I'll get another one just in case. Well, looks like I have a winter project. It's bi-annual smog test is due in 3 weeks too. Hopefully I can get it through that, or I'll have even bigger problems... :-)
10-31-2005, 02:57 AM
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I echo what Geoff said. Funny thing is I currently have my n/a half torn-apart in my garage right now for this very problem. Well. . . that and a timing belt retension. . . and a trans. oil change. . . and a few other things. . .
I believe ibkevin went through this not too long ago as well.
One thing I noticed on my n/a was that the oil is predominantly over the junk on the passenger's side. The driver's side is reasonably oil-free which leads me to believe a similar situation. If there is a leak due to a scored oil pump drive sleeve, it would seep at the bottom of the crank seal. Since the engine rotates clockwise as viewed from the front, it would sling that oil over the passenger's side mostly. Exactly what I'm seeing. Is this the case with yours also?
I know when I changed my belts about 3,000 miles ago (yeah, yeah, I know my retension is overdue. . .) I also changed the H2O pump and rollers and the front seals. Evidently the front seal replacement wasn't enough - I should've changed the oil pump drive sleeve at the same time. Oh well. Chalk it up as a learning experience.
I'm currently letting the car sit to really pin down the leak source (I cleaned everything real good) just to make sure it isn't the oil pan gasket. I suppose no biggie if it is (I need to replace it soon to upgrade to the Callaway-compatable pan anyway) but I'd rather be able to drive it leak-free until then and pin down any other potential issues.
I'll let you know if the pump drive sleeve replacement fixes matters.
I believe ibkevin went through this not too long ago as well.
One thing I noticed on my n/a was that the oil is predominantly over the junk on the passenger's side. The driver's side is reasonably oil-free which leads me to believe a similar situation. If there is a leak due to a scored oil pump drive sleeve, it would seep at the bottom of the crank seal. Since the engine rotates clockwise as viewed from the front, it would sling that oil over the passenger's side mostly. Exactly what I'm seeing. Is this the case with yours also?
I know when I changed my belts about 3,000 miles ago (yeah, yeah, I know my retension is overdue. . .) I also changed the H2O pump and rollers and the front seals. Evidently the front seal replacement wasn't enough - I should've changed the oil pump drive sleeve at the same time. Oh well. Chalk it up as a learning experience.
I'm currently letting the car sit to really pin down the leak source (I cleaned everything real good) just to make sure it isn't the oil pan gasket. I suppose no biggie if it is (I need to replace it soon to upgrade to the Callaway-compatable pan anyway) but I'd rather be able to drive it leak-free until then and pin down any other potential issues.
I'll let you know if the pump drive sleeve replacement fixes matters.
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10-31-2005, 03:33 AM
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In fact, reading this just prompted me to go downstairs and take a peek. Here's what I found, which I'll share for common discussion/knowledge sharing:
You can see a little oil drip here on the triangular piece that the p/s tensioner bolts to. Obviously this comes from above, but the question is: is it the crank seal or the oil pan gasket, or something else?
Well, this makes it kinda' obvious, doesn't it? The one good thing I'll say about this kind of failure is that at least the oil gets flung off the shaft BEFORE entering the belt housing. At least most of it. To say the least, I was rather pleased to not find any oil on the belts, nor to find any caking the inside of the t-belt covers.
Another angle - still pretty clear this isn't coming from the pan gasket but from the crank seal. I'll know more when I pull the rear t-belt cover.
You can see it a little better here. It doesn't show it too well, but there was a little bit of oil in the t-belt cover housing, mostly at the bottom. You can kind of see some wetness here, but that's all that was evident. Most (when the engine was stopped) I'm guessing is running along the pump drive shaft and a little bit is seeping down inside the t-belt housing and out the bottom where the upper & lower pieces come together. There was a little oil there, but since there's a joint there, it wasn't pooling (might be worth drilling a drain hole as well!) but just dripping out the bottom. Looks more and more like the pump drive sleeve/crank seal to me. . .
Another view of the drippage beneath the crank front seal area.
To my oil drip. May you soon die.
You can see a little oil drip here on the triangular piece that the p/s tensioner bolts to. Obviously this comes from above, but the question is: is it the crank seal or the oil pan gasket, or something else?
Well, this makes it kinda' obvious, doesn't it? The one good thing I'll say about this kind of failure is that at least the oil gets flung off the shaft BEFORE entering the belt housing. At least most of it. To say the least, I was rather pleased to not find any oil on the belts, nor to find any caking the inside of the t-belt covers.
Another angle - still pretty clear this isn't coming from the pan gasket but from the crank seal. I'll know more when I pull the rear t-belt cover.
You can see it a little better here. It doesn't show it too well, but there was a little bit of oil in the t-belt cover housing, mostly at the bottom. You can kind of see some wetness here, but that's all that was evident. Most (when the engine was stopped) I'm guessing is running along the pump drive shaft and a little bit is seeping down inside the t-belt housing and out the bottom where the upper & lower pieces come together. There was a little oil there, but since there's a joint there, it wasn't pooling (might be worth drilling a drain hole as well!) but just dripping out the bottom. Looks more and more like the pump drive sleeve/crank seal to me. . .
Another view of the drippage beneath the crank front seal area.
To my oil drip. May you soon die.
10-31-2005, 04:06 AM
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Jeff, lol, that last sentiment is the one I have for my car too !
My leak looks pretty much like yours. I have a lot of oil running down the oil pan towards the back of the car. Wind under the car carries it that way. When I look up at the shaft and seal from below, the seal is loose in the oil pump. It turns with the shaft (it shouldn't do that) and I found that it had come out from its seat, but would easily push back in with a screwdriver, which means it will come out again.
I just ordered the parts...
My leak looks pretty much like yours. I have a lot of oil running down the oil pan towards the back of the car. Wind under the car carries it that way. When I look up at the shaft and seal from below, the seal is loose in the oil pump. It turns with the shaft (it shouldn't do that) and I found that it had come out from its seat, but would easily push back in with a screwdriver, which means it will come out again.
I just ordered the parts...
