NA brakes aren't Porsche like (long)
07-06-2005, 10:38 AM
#31
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You guys crack me up...
Before brakes
After brakes
They still have not reclassed me but I am just out there to have fun and try new stuff out anyway. The guy above me has a LSD installed which I lack. Everything else is matched except for the brakes and his 20 years more experience. Look forward and back, the times are consistent and so is the change in braking performance. My NA brakes were in perfect condition with performance pads and good fluid. Don't knock it until you've tried it..
Snake oil...
Before brakes
After brakes
They still have not reclassed me but I am just out there to have fun and try new stuff out anyway. The guy above me has a LSD installed which I lack. Everything else is matched except for the brakes and his 20 years more experience. Look forward and back, the times are consistent and so is the change in braking performance. My NA brakes were in perfect condition with performance pads and good fluid. Don't knock it until you've tried it..
Snake oil...
07-06-2005, 10:43 AM
#32
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Originally Posted by Helstrm
You guys are forgetting one important factor. The 951 caliper look better...
The most time-consuming part was to create a small flat area onto the face of the front calipers, and just some general smoothing before painting.
Cheers,
Brian
07-06-2005, 10:59 AM
#33
Congratulations on your autoXimprovement, Travis, and the nifty, affordable NA big brake kit. It is a nice mod and appears have quality components in it. But if you are tossing these results out as some kind of proof that a brake pad with the same swept area as OE but activited by a four pot caliper will improve everyone's autcrossing times by 10-15%...wellll, I respectfully reserve the right to be skeptical of the cause and effect connection 
07-06-2005, 11:12 AM
#34
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Originally Posted by TheRealLefty
I respectfully reserve the right to be skeptical of the cause and effect connection...
07-06-2005, 11:45 AM
#36
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I don't know about you guys but I'm going to do the coveted DRUM brake conversion on my S3. I hear that's hot. Plus, then I can paint the drums.
07-06-2005, 11:54 AM
#37
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Well, if any of you want to take my range rover for a drive, or any (classic), hit the brakes, maybe 0-60 twice, and then try the same with the 944, you'll agree 944 brakes are "more than adequate"....
*Which is the point here really.. more than adequate I believe is in refference to, other cars. A lot other cars that travel the road with us have less braking power than a NA, yet they are considered adequate. If you are driving the same roads as these cars, well, the brakes are better than theirs so it's "more than adequate"
.
Anyway, in a lot of situations, you can only brake as well as the person in front of you, otherwise the car behind you with those "adequate" brakes won't be able to stop as fast and slam into you.
*Which is the point here really.. more than adequate I believe is in refference to, other cars. A lot other cars that travel the road with us have less braking power than a NA, yet they are considered adequate. If you are driving the same roads as these cars, well, the brakes are better than theirs so it's "more than adequate"
.Anyway, in a lot of situations, you can only brake as well as the person in front of you, otherwise the car behind you with those "adequate" brakes won't be able to stop as fast and slam into you.
07-06-2005, 11:57 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by Matt O.
I don't know about you guys but I'm going to do the coveted DRUM brake conversion on my S3. I hear that's hot. Plus, then I can paint the drums.
07-06-2005, 12:02 PM
#39
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I have to agree with Skip.
NA brakes are really rather good. Sure they are not sexy, but when they are in proper working order they stop these cars just fine. In my 944-spec I run stock brakes. Sure it is by rule, but I see no need to use turbo brakes. The stockers clear 15" wheels and are lighter than turbo units. Given the low hp of the car in general I am not stopping from very high speeds. Also at most tracks the secret to speed in 944 NA is to NOT use the brakes very much. If you are using them alot you are probably going to slow. That is not to say that turbo brakes might not be an advantage in someways.
On the street the stock NA brakes are fine. On the track in DE the stock NA brakes are fine. On light weigh race car the stock na brakes are fine. On full weight NA race car the stock brakes work pretty good.
Now how many of you really push their cars that hard? How many of you have felt your brakes melt down at the track. I guess that may 10% of you really use 90% or more of the capacity of the brakes. NA brakes work pretty darn well in stopping the car. Turbo brakes are overkill for most all situations short of racing a heavy car.
NA brakes are really rather good. Sure they are not sexy, but when they are in proper working order they stop these cars just fine. In my 944-spec I run stock brakes. Sure it is by rule, but I see no need to use turbo brakes. The stockers clear 15" wheels and are lighter than turbo units. Given the low hp of the car in general I am not stopping from very high speeds. Also at most tracks the secret to speed in 944 NA is to NOT use the brakes very much. If you are using them alot you are probably going to slow. That is not to say that turbo brakes might not be an advantage in someways.
On the street the stock NA brakes are fine. On the track in DE the stock NA brakes are fine. On light weigh race car the stock na brakes are fine. On full weight NA race car the stock brakes work pretty good.
Now how many of you really push their cars that hard? How many of you have felt your brakes melt down at the track. I guess that may 10% of you really use 90% or more of the capacity of the brakes. NA brakes work pretty darn well in stopping the car. Turbo brakes are overkill for most all situations short of racing a heavy car.
07-06-2005, 01:03 PM
#40
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I agree with Skip and Joe P. here.
There's not a good understanding of what kind of improvement big brake kits are. 90% of it is fade resistance. Bigger rotors and lever arm do have an impact on stopping abilitiy but in the end, it's not nearly as impactful as fade resistance.
944 Turbos and other higher horsepower cars have bigger brakes because they put more heat into the brakes. More horsepower = more speed. More speed = More heat generated in slowing the car down.
Mind you this is mostly relevant at the track where you go lap after lap at 9/10ths or 10/10ths. A 944NA doesn't hit the same speeds as a 951 and hence, doesn't put as much heat into the brakes.
Think of a bucket with a hole at the bottom. You put water in, it drains out at a certain rate. As you drive around a track and get on the brakes from speed, you're pouring water into that bucket. A 944NA at the track does a nice job of keeping the bucket from overflowing. Add more power (like say a turbo) and now the brakes won't be up to the task of keeping the bucket from overflowing.
So a big brake upgrade is a bigger bucket with a bigger hole.
Again, this is really only relevant at the track or if you're street commute is like Pikes Peak. Street usage barely gets brakes up to temp.
I've tracked my car with the stock 951 brakes and a decent power upgrade for years without feeling the need for bigger brakes. Better pads, yes, but not bigger brakes. I've also driven a 951 with big reds and the difference was resistance to fade. I have to practice a bit of brake management to avoid fade in long track sessions or brake abusive tracks. In the big red car, there was none of that steadily increasing brake sponginess I get towards the end of a session.
So if the above made any sense to our friendly readers, they also see why the "if you can lock up the brakes you don't need bigger brakes" argument misses the mark, although its well intentioned.
It's a rare car that can't lock up it's brakes. Does that mean none of them need brake upgrades? Well usually yes but not because they can lock up the brakes. A 951 using 944NA brakes can lock up just as well as it can with 951 brakes. And for street usage, a 951 would be just fine with 944NA brakes. That's basically what an E36 M3 is. 240hp in about 3100lbs with 944NA brakes.
Does the E36 M3 need a brake upgrade? No. Until you take it to the track.
But a big brake upgrade should never be your first stop up the braking ladder. Lots of people go to the track and fade their brakes, making them think they need bigger brakes for all the reasons I just stated.
They're often mistaken. Two types of people fade brakes. Novices who are on the brakes too much, and people who are now at the point where they actually know what they're doing at the track, really do have more power to create more speed and are really working the brakes. There's a lot of middle ground inbetween before you need to step to bigger brakes.
Fresh brake fluid and decent pads go a long way towards fade resistance. If you're really cooking, you might want to step up to track pads which don't wilt under temperature.
Which is my final pet peeve and I promise to shut up. Track pads don't make sense on the street. Lots of people think that because it's a track item, it's got to also perform better on the street.
They don't.
Track pads need to be at temperature to work well. And that's a temperature that you just don't see on the street. Do i drive around with track pads? Yeah but only because I'm too lazy to swap out to street pads after events. But I do recognize I'm driving around at less than 100% braking capability and act accordingly.
Ok. I'm done. No more brake rants from me.
There's not a good understanding of what kind of improvement big brake kits are. 90% of it is fade resistance. Bigger rotors and lever arm do have an impact on stopping abilitiy but in the end, it's not nearly as impactful as fade resistance.
944 Turbos and other higher horsepower cars have bigger brakes because they put more heat into the brakes. More horsepower = more speed. More speed = More heat generated in slowing the car down.
Mind you this is mostly relevant at the track where you go lap after lap at 9/10ths or 10/10ths. A 944NA doesn't hit the same speeds as a 951 and hence, doesn't put as much heat into the brakes.
Think of a bucket with a hole at the bottom. You put water in, it drains out at a certain rate. As you drive around a track and get on the brakes from speed, you're pouring water into that bucket. A 944NA at the track does a nice job of keeping the bucket from overflowing. Add more power (like say a turbo) and now the brakes won't be up to the task of keeping the bucket from overflowing.
So a big brake upgrade is a bigger bucket with a bigger hole.
Again, this is really only relevant at the track or if you're street commute is like Pikes Peak. Street usage barely gets brakes up to temp.
I've tracked my car with the stock 951 brakes and a decent power upgrade for years without feeling the need for bigger brakes. Better pads, yes, but not bigger brakes. I've also driven a 951 with big reds and the difference was resistance to fade. I have to practice a bit of brake management to avoid fade in long track sessions or brake abusive tracks. In the big red car, there was none of that steadily increasing brake sponginess I get towards the end of a session.
So if the above made any sense to our friendly readers, they also see why the "if you can lock up the brakes you don't need bigger brakes" argument misses the mark, although its well intentioned.
It's a rare car that can't lock up it's brakes. Does that mean none of them need brake upgrades? Well usually yes but not because they can lock up the brakes. A 951 using 944NA brakes can lock up just as well as it can with 951 brakes. And for street usage, a 951 would be just fine with 944NA brakes. That's basically what an E36 M3 is. 240hp in about 3100lbs with 944NA brakes.
Does the E36 M3 need a brake upgrade? No. Until you take it to the track.
But a big brake upgrade should never be your first stop up the braking ladder. Lots of people go to the track and fade their brakes, making them think they need bigger brakes for all the reasons I just stated.
They're often mistaken. Two types of people fade brakes. Novices who are on the brakes too much, and people who are now at the point where they actually know what they're doing at the track, really do have more power to create more speed and are really working the brakes. There's a lot of middle ground inbetween before you need to step to bigger brakes.
Fresh brake fluid and decent pads go a long way towards fade resistance. If you're really cooking, you might want to step up to track pads which don't wilt under temperature.
Which is my final pet peeve and I promise to shut up. Track pads don't make sense on the street. Lots of people think that because it's a track item, it's got to also perform better on the street.
They don't.
Track pads need to be at temperature to work well. And that's a temperature that you just don't see on the street. Do i drive around with track pads? Yeah but only because I'm too lazy to swap out to street pads after events. But I do recognize I'm driving around at less than 100% braking capability and act accordingly.
Ok. I'm done. No more brake rants from me.
07-06-2005, 02:04 PM
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Wow... I opened a can of worms here... Healthy discussion indeed.
Well it does seem logical that the only parts that haven't been touched are MC and booster. But how in the world do you check the booster. I remember when I disconnected the vacuum hose (with the valve) that goes from booster to venturi I heard the sucking noise coming from the booster side. So I thought to myself .. diaphragm is good... Anyone knows other ways to check BB and MC? Thanks for all your input.
Well it does seem logical that the only parts that haven't been touched are MC and booster. But how in the world do you check the booster. I remember when I disconnected the vacuum hose (with the valve) that goes from booster to venturi I heard the sucking noise coming from the booster side. So I thought to myself .. diaphragm is good... Anyone knows other ways to check BB and MC? Thanks for all your input.
07-06-2005, 02:09 PM
#42
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Where's the Smiley Shoveling $hit Icon????
Another fine example of 944 Board wit. 10% wisdom. 90% BS. Hmmm... that's probably being generous.
When you guys who are playing with each other stop playing with each other, what is left is the truth: NA brakes are just fine.
Porsche is pretty good at building sports cars, eh? Give me a break! What do you think guys racing PCA Stock I Class do for brakes? They have to be STOCK, and anyone of those guys will smoke your sorry butts six ways from Sunday without even breaking a sweat doing it. They do it with those ugly, piddly, insignificant little iron single piston calipers. What's you're excuse?
There are three basic reasons for changing brakes: You mod your car to be way faster, Bling, or Budget. Yeh... I've got 86T brakes on my 84. Why? I got tired of frying Metalmasters in 1-2 days, and then eventually couldn't afford to burn up $400 Carbon/Kevlar pads in 4-5 days! Pure economics.
This was all for track use, of course. If you can lock your tires, then you learn (if you think) that this is all the brake you have the grip for. Beyond that, what is your question? Not saying putting big brakes on is dumb (even though 99% of the time it is)... just, what's your point?
How'd I do, Tifo?
Another fine example of 944 Board wit. 10% wisdom. 90% BS. Hmmm... that's probably being generous.
When you guys who are playing with each other stop playing with each other, what is left is the truth: NA brakes are just fine.
Porsche is pretty good at building sports cars, eh? Give me a break! What do you think guys racing PCA Stock I Class do for brakes? They have to be STOCK, and anyone of those guys will smoke your sorry butts six ways from Sunday without even breaking a sweat doing it. They do it with those ugly, piddly, insignificant little iron single piston calipers. What's you're excuse?
There are three basic reasons for changing brakes: You mod your car to be way faster, Bling, or Budget. Yeh... I've got 86T brakes on my 84. Why? I got tired of frying Metalmasters in 1-2 days, and then eventually couldn't afford to burn up $400 Carbon/Kevlar pads in 4-5 days! Pure economics.
This was all for track use, of course. If you can lock your tires, then you learn (if you think) that this is all the brake you have the grip for. Beyond that, what is your question? Not saying putting big brakes on is dumb (even though 99% of the time it is)... just, what's your point?
How'd I do, Tifo?
07-06-2005, 02:18 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
How'd I do, Tifo? For the record, my little comment about crazy people aside from earlier in the thread.................Yep, I have big brakes. That's just me though, it was a personal decision. In hindsight I wish I just had regular 951 calipers on the car, for the reason that John stated above (pads), and the fact that some wheels are now off-limits due to the overly-manly calipers on the front of my car.
I think the N/A brakes, IF in good tune, are very effective. If anyone fades their N/A brakes on the street, there is a problem, OR they are dumbazzes and deserve a little offroad excursion. I would venture to say that 80% of the people on this BBS that complain about their N/A brakes couldn't tell me the last time they bled the system (original poster in this thread excepted, of course).
Anyway, those Willwoods from Travis are pretty cool, nonetheless.
