Skip

Austin944 - neat trick - great advice!

Matt, Matt, Matt... I disagree with you disagreeing you big disagree'er

NA brakes are more than adequate. Based on the speed they can attain, the vehicle weight and the friction compounds available, they are proven to be very adequate on the track - the only place where braking efficiency can truly be measured and sufficiently tested. Now, if you want to say that improperly balanced, bled or otherwise poorly maintained brakes on the NA are less than adequate, I can agree. But, from experience, I can tell you I have never wished for more brakes on the track when the system is working well and I have the right pads for the conditions - fade is a consequence of improper technique or mechanical inadequacy, both are controllable. I'll agree that they can't possibly be as good as Turbo brakes, or Wilwoods, but that's not the question here. They are more than adequate, for street, based on their relative performance on the track.

Now, the real question is why wice.lt is having trouble after going to great lengths to fix his squishy brakes. I think the answer has already been given - either the MC or the booster are at fault. However, wice.lt should buddy-bleed the brakes one more time to get some good pedal travel going with some old-fashioned "down, up - down, up" flush.

Matt O.

Come on Skip. "NA brakes are more then adequate" -- for what? I'm not saying they are Pontiac Firebird brakes, I'm saying they are nothing compared the 951 brakes, as you stated, and in this case also lacking compared to the Wilwoods. Yes the NA brakes are great on the track but you can't honestly tell me that you wouldn't have faster times with 951 or 951S or big reds up front. I just don't buy it. I'll try to get some hard data this weekend, and yes I will use the same wheels/tires and yes the braking system in the 88 is in good shape (master and slave was repaced about 5k miles ago).

So if I'm right you going to send me some front Koni adjustables or what?

-M

Serge944

If you're wrong, do I get to keep your s3?

Matt O.

Why would you want my S3 it has brake overkill...?

If I win you get banned from Rennlist for a year. If you win.... I'll apologize.

Skip

Since there's no possible way that you are right - because, friend, that would make me wrong - you win a date with me if I'm wrong. I'll even shave my back.

One of us is missing the point I am not in any way saying that NA brakes are as good or better than Turbo brakes. The statement is that they are more than adequate. One datapoint may be gained by knowing that brake upgrades are not needed nor allowed in any of the main 944na racing venues (SCCA, NASA). If the brakes were not "more than adequate" there would easily be a safety ruling penned against the 944na to allow or require the use of an upgrade. Instead, we are allowed any fluid, any pad and auxilliary cooling techniques. By saying they are "more than adequate" is not to say that they could not be better.

I should tell you that if my na brakes were not more than adequate, I would be very embarrassed by the amount of rear bumper and armco I would have to eat. Further, in many cases, if they were any better than they are I may become very frustrated at all the followers I collect in me ****.

Matt O.

I see nothing wrong with wanting to make a car better/safer/etc. Many people have larger wheels/tires on their NAs and could benefit from larger brakes. I also disagree that the criteria for upgrading brakes or not, should be what is used in a 944 class race. I know you're the expert in that matter (944 racing) but am I wrong in understanding alot of the "rules" from those series are based upon what was or could have been stock at the time the car was purchased? Yes the 944s with na brakes are SAFE on the track but could they not be SAFER or BETTER with Turbo brakes? Wouldn't you have faster lap times with Turbo brakes on an NA? I see brake size on a production car as more a factor of cost vs. performance then performance and cost be damned. Hence the aftermarket.

Even though you say I'm dead wrong I'm still going to do some brake testing this weekend. We'll call it just for ****s and giggles. Just so we're on the same page, you are saying the Turbo brakes will NOT stop a 944 quicker from 60-0, given the same wheels/tires? I just want to know what we're "testing" -- if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. No big deal I've been wrong before. I think it'll be fun to do regardless.

Yes, please shave your back.

Skip

But, but, but...

We're still comparing apples to elephants. The na brakes are more than adequate - this is the statement. Just as most things on the car are well designed, for their time and purpose, so are/were the brakes. An example of something that is less than adequate is the aluminum control arm ball joint. In contrast to the brakes, the original design of the ball joint has a flaw when subjected to certain situations like racing, lowering, high mileage, etc. This flaw is well known, and, has been the specific subject of rules changes in racing for the sake of safety - so far as to make it a mandatory upgrade item in some venues. This part is less than adequate. In close company, though not so catastrophically significant, are the rubber hub clutch, #2 and #3 rod bearing oiling, non-HD turbo clutch, oil cooler seals, ring and pinion, PS reservoir cap, and on and on.

However, the na brakes coud very easily be improved upon. Just as the Turbo brakes could be. Imagine using your philosophy against the brake upgrade from non-M030 to M030 S2, 951 and 968. And, what about the new PCCB's. The new 997 weighs just under 3100lbs, similar to the 951/S2/968. They are available with PCCB. Is anything else less than adequate?

I won't get out my razor just yet...

Travis - sflraver

Hey Matt,

Thanks for the plug, but its not necessary to have a pissing contest over the brakes. We have Wilwoods full production of this forged series and we can't keep them on the shelf as it is. No need for extra advertising right now.

Everyone who has picked up a set ( being used in 4 countries now that I know of) has loved them. Said they made all the difference in the world just as they did on my NA.

We will more than likely be giving a full set away at the Fest next week.

Skip,

Put down the crack pipe (and the razor).

Best of luck!!

pearldrum944

Awesome!

tifosiman

I think that people who put big brakes on their N/A's are just plain crazy.

apierce918

well if some kind sponsor was giving them away at the fest, call me crazy anyday

Helstrm

You guys are forgetting one important factor. The 951 caliper look better...

TheRealLefty

Aside from the bling of the having big colorful calipers showing through the wheels, I have to fall on Skip's side of this discussion.

I have both examples in my driveway...and yes, the stopping power and fade resistance of my 89 Turbo is other worldly compared to 99% of the world's production cars. But my 85.5 autocross/DE car actually has better pedal and stops quite comparably with OE calipers. Granted, I take great effort in keeping the system up to snuff with ATE Super Blue swap outs after every competition event, carbon-kevlar pads and cross drilled Zimmermans....but, long story short, anybody driving an NA and not feeling like they have good stopping power has a mechanical problem, because these little one piston cast iron calibers work just fine under extremely challenging conditions.

It's all about slowing and stopping the car in the real world not the technical specs of the system. IMO, the stopping power of my Turbo S system with an extra 200 lbs or so in the nose compared to my NA and the potential for much higher entry speeds into corners is appropriate on the 951 but would represent significant overkill on my 2600 lb NA track car.

Sam I am

Bigger brakes DO NOT make you stop faster. Someone can lock up their wheels with the smallest brake pad in the world if the force applied to the piston in the calipers is large enough. This force is influenced by the size of the piston, piston size and the length of the lever arm on the brake pedal (Based on fundamental physics and statics). Rotor size also effects stopping ability. However, too small a brake pad will create uneven wear on the rotor and larger brake pads often give better braking feedback and better wear.

Porsche-O-Phile

I'm able to lock up all four wheels from 80+ mph in my n/a car (found this out by accident) with street pads and standard rotors. The n/a brakes are fine. Like someone pointed out, I'm sure they can be made better, but there's nothing wrong with them as-is. IIRC the reason the turbos incorporated larger brakes was to deal with larger moments of inertia on the wheels due to larger wheel / tire sizes. It does not mean the n/a brakes are inadequate.

I know there are people on here that would love to claim they are in order to sell a $2,000 brake upgrade, but I just ain't biting on the position that the n/a brakes need it. That said, I'm not knocking the Wellwood brake kit and if someone REALLY feels they need one, go get it. Heck, if I had money to burn I'd buy one too, but I don't and I feel that the money can be better spent in order to yield way more tangible results (DE, engine and drivetrain upgrades, basic maintenance, etc.) I just don't like it when people distort the truth in order to sell something - caveat emptor guys. I think my grandfather said it best when he taught me as a kid, "consider your source". Motives are rarely unselfish.