superloaf

Maybe you're right about what most folks want but, hey, most folks are idiots. I can honestly say that I don't think I have ever driven any car, truck, motorcycle, bicycle, golf cart, lawn mower,etc. without demanding some element of enjoyment out of it. And when it comes to this quality, some brands/designs are better than others. For instance, I used to drive cube trucks (15') for a job I had. Everytime we rented one I would use a renter who had Isuzus over the the ones with GM's or Fords. The GM's were a lot faster in acceleration but the Isuzus had a feel to them which was light years ahead in feel and precision. Same with the brakes. These attributes allowed me to fling them around corners and be much more precise when moving through traffic without that feeling of driving a floaty, mushy "boat" which was the case with the other manufacturers products.

So maybe I'm weird and not your average person, but if I were an engineer I would never ever ever make any kind of drivable product that had the feel of most of the American cars/trucks. And if you demand this uber-quality then the Germans are #1 (and the Italians but I can't afford a Ferrari just yet). Everyone else only has it when they're forced to keep up with the Europeans.

That is what's special about Porsches, BMW's, Alfas, etc. They are designed with this quality built-in. For the people making them (and the people who buy them) this is not negotiable. It's in the blood. It's not a marketing ploy. Do you think a group of Porsche engineers have ever sat around and argued about whether their new car should be fun to drive or not? Hell, no, it's a given. Same to a degree with all the other brands mentioned.

Sorry, no compromises on this for me.

Matt H

If all consumers demanded some sort of element of enjoyment then domestics would have been dinosaurs years ago. Have you ever driven a Saturn?

For Porsche quality, you have to be kidding. The 944 is replete with garbage engineering, overengineering, and just plain stupidity (see also 944 turbo crossover). It didnt get any better either, do a search on how many Boxsters have RMS problems or worse still very premature engine failures.

A car should be fun to drive but if fun to drive is priority #1 it wont be good at much else (see also: Elise).
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incessant

[QUOTE=Manning]Oh sure, I agree there. Like I said, at 6'5" and not over weight I have a hard time fitting in asian vehicles drivers' seats. Sure I am above average height, but that doesn't go very far in explaining why I DO fit in most european cars I have driven and not asian cars. They asian cars, if fitted with sporty seats, tend to bind and I can't put the seat back far enough to be comfortable.

Hell, I can't even put the seat back all the way in my 924S because if I did I wouldn't be able to reach the pedals./[QUOTE]

Wow.. you must have some short legs my friend..

I agree with the 'Asian cars are tiny' principle.. but look at the average homosapien size difference!

I am 6'4", and I fit BETTER in my 944 then in a '93 300ZX I test drove.. but I would die for another 2 inches to slide the seat back!

UDPride

Anyone who drives a Porsche or owns a Porsche is out of the realm of normality.

But theres a reason people buy a million Accords a year and a million Cavaliers and 3 million trucks (or whatever the insane numbers are). Nobody is running out to buy a new Carrera except for the very fringe population. Most people dont even care WHAT car they drive as long as it runs, has A/C and doesnt break down.

Ask 9 out of 10 people and for $45,000 they would rather own a loaded CTS than a Boxster or a used Carrera. Asking Rennlist members is not a good sample. Most general people would rather own an RS-X than a 944 after driving both back to back. Different cars for different markets. An RXS is a mass market item geared toward making less money per sale but more sales. Porsches are geared for fewer sales and more money per sale.

incessant

You're damn right we are abnormal and different! That's what makes us cool!

And the car we drive is an extension of our personality.

Or a $40K *enis extension

or something to that effect !

UDPride

This is the truth. I love pcars, but some of the design is absolutely a joke. The perfect example is the seat bolts. Only a german getting lithium injections could have devised such a BS protocol for bolting seats in that can never be taken out again unless you drill the bolts out with a carbon tipped drill bit. How about the dash lights. Ive never owned another car where the dash lights faded over the years. I just find that an unacceptable compromise on a car that ran $35,000 back in 1986.

I think the body panels on Porsches are built very well. I think the actual engine blocks are built well. Anything basically cast or forged seemed to be built to last. Its like these blokes completely turned off the lights on all the small stuff though -- stuff that wears and tears. Why would Porsche built tens of thousands of 3.2 and 3.3 911s and install a hideously incapable A/C system in them?

For a long ride Id rather be comfortable and bored, than exhuberant and my back killing me. Hence Id probably choose an RSX over any 80s Porsche if I needed to get somewhere on a long drive in comfort and peace of mind (not get stranded because something breaks).

Legoland951

I believe the point is Hondas have higher quality control, thus no leaky power steering, malfunctioning air conditioning, broken center console hinges, broken sunvisor clips, disintegrated rubber donut clutches, leaky fuel lines (routed over the hottest part of the car - the exhaust headers, thus causing cars to catch on fire and is a DOT safety recall mandated by the federal govt.) etc which are factory design defects. I love the 944/951s to death but lets get real here, most people enjoy refinement, comfort, and reliability much more than having a badge that says "porsche" or being able to outcorner someone onto the freeway by 0.08 seconds. Most of the 944/951 owners never see competitive track time.

JDeitz951

This thread seems to have resolved into "Porsches are then best cars ever", "No they're not", "Yes they are". Of course they aren't!

The 944/951 is just the best true sports car you could find for under $5000/$10000. That's worth arguing. This other stuff is a waste of electrons.

Legoland951

UD, you forgot to mention how tiny the tiny 4 x 10mm bolts holding the front seats, they are a joke. As for the statement:

And the car we drive is an extension of our personality.
Or a $40K *enis extension

I say a $4k *enis extension of a 20+ year old 944 is a very short extension.

Matt H

The 944 is not even CLOSE to the best "true sports car" under 10K dollars. It is one choice out of many.
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Legoland951

A chipped 951 could be close though....

Lets face it, we, the people who love 944/951s, are mostly composed of old fogies who grew up in the 80s or kids with just enough money to buy one of the cheapest cars with the "Porsche" badge on it. We like what we like but it doesn't mean what we like is better than everything else.

JDeitz951

My argument is that the 944 is the best under $5000 and the 951 under $10000.

Not even close? Get real!

So what are the "many" others that so vastly superior to the 944/951 in the aforementioned price ranges?

X 944 X

MR2 Turbo easily... you could get a cream puff 93-95 turbo for 10k

500

Up here in Canada, there are not too many 19 year old Hondas to compare to my 19 year old 944, but the half broken console hinge is the only example of "the usual 944 pitfalls" that I have on my car. Without a doubt the level of "fussiness" of these cars is much higher than many others. It is clear that the reliable high mileage examples have had a steady diet of maintenance over the years. Really nice older Acuras also typically have an excellent record of maintenance. The big difference that I observe is that a neglected older Honda (for example) may still run OK (rusted out body and all), but an equally neglected 944 is a seriously deep money pit one snapped timing belt from doom. However, up to now (in this market anyway) 944s have survived pretty well in proportion to their original numbers FWIW.

I have a co-worker with a really nice RSX Type S. The car is excellent. Not as fast as my WRX, but more refined. That said, a nice 944 S2 could be had for significantly less, and although its not for everyone (the aforementioned mandatory and $$$ maintenance for example), it still is a worthwhile alternative for enthusiasts.

Manning

Nope, 35" inseam. If I put the seat all the way back in my car I can't fully depress the clutch comfortably.