View Poll Results: wat would you pay for a turbo kit?
$1000 max
4
26.67%
$2000 max
3
20.00%
$3000 max
4
26.67%
$4000 max
3
20.00%
$5000 max
1
6.67%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll
.
05-24-2005, 03:19 AM
#2
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the stock DME is not up to the task with no knock detection for margain of safety under boost. Meaning standalone or 951 engine management would be needed. That would bump the price enough to make people want to go to a 951 car to get all plus the suspension and brakes. Now, me, I had(and still do) plan to far surpass the stock 951 running gear susp. and brakes, so why pay for it up front if it's getting upgraded anyway?
For a usable kit that will get the job done right, I was looking at 4500-6500 to go turbo on an NA motor before I swapped to 951. The cost plus the car price would buy a nice built 951 car. Don't get me wrong, I love upgrades and would probably have gotten a kit back before I swapped(if available), but there's not going to be enough sales to cover R&D plus components. Most find it easier and cheaper to upgrade cars, not parts.
I did vote 4K tho.
For a usable kit that will get the job done right, I was looking at 4500-6500 to go turbo on an NA motor before I swapped to 951. The cost plus the car price would buy a nice built 951 car. Don't get me wrong, I love upgrades and would probably have gotten a kit back before I swapped(if available), but there's not going to be enough sales to cover R&D plus components. Most find it easier and cheaper to upgrade cars, not parts.
I did vote 4K tho.
05-24-2005, 03:26 AM
#3
Hey Man
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Puhleez...add the rest of the drivetrain and suspension and there might be appeal. I would love a sleeper turbo set-up in my 83 but no one else knows the car anyway and who would be surprised if they got beat by a Porsche? The best thing about the N/A is the full use of the engine potential, top to bottom. I love driving the car in natural lightweight form, my 951 is fast but the N/A is the King of the Twisties...until you hit a climb or straight stretch.
05-24-2005, 03:40 AM
#6
The Hoffinator
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$0.
figure 3k in the initial investment for a decnt car. add 4k MIN parts to do it right (according to andy's post). there you have an investment of $7k. and thats assuming you have andy's know how to do it right. i seriously doubt many people here do. to do a full blown properly done conversion, not half assing it.. it takes alot of know how that few people here possess. if not add shop l;abor to have someone do it for you.
so $7000(parts & car to start with) into it and yuore still stuck with an NA thats only worth 3k. you still have 8 valves. you dont have a 951 gear box or dif. you still have na suspension, you still have na everything else. face it.. you still have an 944 that would still struggle against a 951. not only that but your resale value woulndt be squat. that and not many would be interesting in buying it if you decided to sell it because they wouldnt be able to trust or know what was done and if it was done with out short cut.
if you want a turbo, buy a friggin turbo.
andy is the lone exception here.. and not many people i know of are talented enough or knowledge able enough to pull somthing like that off correctly (ie no short cuts)
that and i firml;y believe andy didnt do it to save money or as an investment etc.. but as an exercise in pushing his limits of what he can do.
figure 3k in the initial investment for a decnt car. add 4k MIN parts to do it right (according to andy's post). there you have an investment of $7k. and thats assuming you have andy's know how to do it right. i seriously doubt many people here do. to do a full blown properly done conversion, not half assing it.. it takes alot of know how that few people here possess. if not add shop l;abor to have someone do it for you.
so $7000(parts & car to start with) into it and yuore still stuck with an NA thats only worth 3k. you still have 8 valves. you dont have a 951 gear box or dif. you still have na suspension, you still have na everything else. face it.. you still have an 944 that would still struggle against a 951. not only that but your resale value woulndt be squat. that and not many would be interesting in buying it if you decided to sell it because they wouldnt be able to trust or know what was done and if it was done with out short cut.
if you want a turbo, buy a friggin turbo.
andy is the lone exception here.. and not many people i know of are talented enough or knowledge able enough to pull somthing like that off correctly (ie no short cuts)
that and i firml;y believe andy didnt do it to save money or as an investment etc.. but as an exercise in pushing his limits of what he can do.
05-24-2005, 04:05 AM
#7
Campeck Rulez
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by hoffman912
$0.
figure 3k in the initial investment for a decnt car. add 4k MIN parts to do it right (according to andy's post). there you have an investment of $7k. and thats assuming you have andy's know how to do it right. i seriously doubt many people here do. to do a full blown properly done conversion, not half assing it.. it takes alot of know how that few people here possess. if not add shop l;abor to have someone do it for you.
so $7000(parts & car to start with) into it and yuore still stuck with an NA thats only worth 3k. you still have 8 valves. you dont have a 951 gear box or dif. you still have na suspension, you still have na everything else. face it.. you still have an 944 that would still struggle against a 951. not only that but your resale value woulndt be squat. that and not many would be interesting in buying it if you decided to sell it because they wouldnt be able to trust or know what was done and if it was done with out short cut.
if you want a turbo, buy a friggin turbo.
andy is the lone exception here.. and not many people i know of are talented enough or knowledge able enough to pull somthing like that off correctly (ie no short cuts)
that and i firml;y believe andy didnt do it to save money or as an investment etc.. but as an exercise in pushing his limits of what he can do.
figure 3k in the initial investment for a decnt car. add 4k MIN parts to do it right (according to andy's post). there you have an investment of $7k. and thats assuming you have andy's know how to do it right. i seriously doubt many people here do. to do a full blown properly done conversion, not half assing it.. it takes alot of know how that few people here possess. if not add shop l;abor to have someone do it for you.
so $7000(parts & car to start with) into it and yuore still stuck with an NA thats only worth 3k. you still have 8 valves. you dont have a 951 gear box or dif. you still have na suspension, you still have na everything else. face it.. you still have an 944 that would still struggle against a 951. not only that but your resale value woulndt be squat. that and not many would be interesting in buying it if you decided to sell it because they wouldnt be able to trust or know what was done and if it was done with out short cut.
if you want a turbo, buy a friggin turbo.
andy is the lone exception here.. and not many people i know of are talented enough or knowledge able enough to pull somthing like that off correctly (ie no short cuts)
that and i firml;y believe andy didnt do it to save money or as an investment etc.. but as an exercise in pushing his limits of what he can do.
if everyone thought ahead about how much they would spend on their cars and just bought the car that was a step higher already, noone would have an NA. or 951. or 912.
how much money have you spent on that 912 harry? hell. with the money put in that car you could prolly buy a later model 911 or 951. why mod the 912 harry. youll never get the value back. just buy a 951. see the logic? cause i dont. I just thought ppl would like THEIR car and like a little extra power. o fuking well.
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05-24-2005, 04:08 AM
#8
Campeck Rulez
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Originally Posted by KuHL 951
Puhleez...add the rest of the drivetrain and suspension and there might be appeal. I would love a sleeper turbo set-up in my 83 but no one else knows the car anyway and who would be surprised if they got beat by a Porsche? The best thing about the N/A is the full use of the engine potential, top to bottom. I love driving the car in natural lightweight form, my 951 is fast but the N/A is the King of the Twisties...until you hit a climb or straight stretch.
you wont buy the kit unless upgraded supension is included, yet you claim your NA is king of the twisties.......and then, the last sentence of your post TOTTALY justifies my want to help.
I am trying to give you that extra ump in the straights that you JUST SAID there was a lack of......puhleez.
05-24-2005, 04:14 AM
#10
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It's being worked on currently but I'll tell you this as someone that's assisting and going down this road himself - there's never going to be a "kit" per-se in terms of a bolt-in type of setup - not if you want it done right. You've been around here long enough to have seen the "What it takes to turbocharge a Porsche" picture, so there's no need to post it again, nor to get this into another predictable flame-fest about "can I turbo my n/a?" We've all been there - about a zillion times.
What you'd need MINIMUM is the turbocharger, a manifold to duct exhaust air to it, a means of control (wastegate), inlet air piping, and fuel control.
Let's go through these one at a time:
(1) Turbocharger
The selection of the "correct" turbocharger alone is a big one and will be impacted by factors such as how much power you want to make, anticipated power band, cost, mounting location, type of exhaust inlet / outlet flanges, etc. Since T04E shells are pretty common and pretty cheap with T3/T4 flanges, let's assume you go with one of these. You can probably pick one up that's REASONABLE for use with a 2.5L 4-banger for around $400 new. This will vary somewhat depending on manufacturer and reliability, but you can get 'em cheap on Ebay for in the $300-$400 range and buy them in bulk if you were to produce a "kit".
(2) Manifold
This is the one that's going to kill you. There are two precedents for this. One is the 951-style setup utilizing a crossover pipe to duct exhaust air from the stock headers to another location where the turbo is mounted. The advantage of this is that you'll (1) be able to get the turbo someplace where it's accessible and not tightly crammed in near a bunch of other stuff and (2) in an area where it will be cooled better than right near the headers. The obvious disadvantages are (1) weight of pipe, (2) expensive fabrication costs of pipe (this is substantial), (3) reduction in power due to losses of heat and kinetic energy of the exhaust gas to the turbine and (4) it's one more thing (as on the 951) in the way of the oil pan, etc. It also introduces heat (and a lot of it) into areas that might not have been intended for such heat to go, causing premature deterioration of seals, oil leaks, fires, and other fun things.
The other option that's precedented is the Callaway-type setup with a tight "block-hugger" type manifold with the turbo mounted right off of it. This is really nice from an efficiency / spool-up / simplicity stanpoint, but turbo life is compromised and considerations must be made to extend life. This could include pre and after oilers (I'll be running these) but that also jacks up the cost. As with the option #1, there is still an enormous fabrication cost to overcome.
I doubt you could get any sort of minimum production stock (quantities 20-50) of either type of manifold / crossover setup done for less than $1,000. There's a helluva lot of custom mandrel bending and / or welding in either case and the tolerances are not ridiculously tight, but call for a fabricator that can be reasonably precise as well. This ain't a job for a home mechanic with a MIG in the back yard. It would require machine shop intervention and the price will certainly reflect it.
(3) Wastegate
Again, where do you mount it? There needs to also be additional plumbing including a dump pipe / bypass pipe and the primary connection to the turbocharger turbine. Using a Tial as an available "off-the-shelf" part, it's about $200-$300 straight-up, plus the additional fabrication costs to integrate it into the manifold. This increases production costs. You also have to provide a means of control (signal line) to a boost controller of some sort. Not a big deal, but it does limit the options for placement somewhat and some intelligent selection of routing must be observed.
(4) Inlet Air Piping
Another expensive item. Depending on turbocharger placement, you're looking at between one and three separate pieces of mandrel-bent piping. Add an intercooler? There's another $300-$400 just for the intercooler and possibly more pipes. AND you have to find a mounting location that will not impede airflow to the radiator or oil cooler. For an intercooler-less option, I'd estimate the cost of piping alone at $300 per car, conservatively.
(5) Fuel Control
This is a biggie. The stock n/a injectors have a lot of extra unused flow capability that is never seen. Whether or not this is adequate to give a suitable "cushion" for low-boosting without upgrading the injectors I'm not 100% certain, but I do know that Callaway didn't think so, adding a "fifth injector" in the intake plenum that worked in tandem with the standard four. Assuming this to be the case, let's figure you go with a similar setup - that's about another $100 for an injector and plumbing and you're still faced with the problem of control. An ERL MF2 mappable injector controller or equivalent is about $200-$300 - that's one option. Alternatively you could try to obtain a supply of 951 DME boxes and rig up an adapter for the harnesses. This would be better in some ways, but a LOT of R&D work to get right. The up-front costs in terms of time, labor, etc. would be very high. It's also assuming an upgrade to 951 injectors which alone adds about $400 to the total "kit" price. For sake of arguement, let's say you can run a "fifth injector" type setup with a standalone controller for about a $400 to $500 price tag.
So let's assess:
Turbo - $400-ish
Manifold - $1,000 (or more)
Wastegate - $300-ish
Inlet Air Piping - $300-ish
Fuel Control - $500-ish
This puts us in the $2,500 range JUST for parts. It also means no intercooler, you still have to figure out an oil supply & return setup (Callaway does the supply off the pump near the filter and return through a bung on the pan), etc. You also have done nothing for the transmission, suspension, brakes, etc. You're also assuming stock engine configuration which is relatively high compression (9.5:1 or higher depending on year / spec) and cast pistons. This can certainly be done, but the engine will have far less "safety factor" built into it in case of a momentary lean condition, any sort of pinging or detonation, or errors in tuning.
Just as an "off the top of my head" number based on the research I've done for my own project, to do a turbo conversion RIGHT including the upgraded suspension, transmission, etc. is going to easily run into the $4,000-$5,000 range.
You also have to consider that while we're all crazy about our cars, the market for 944s is pretty soft. There simply aren't many of them around. EVEN IF a "kit" could be made to produce a bolt-up h.p. boost in the 200-ish range for under $3,000, I'd suspect they wouldn't sell very well and those that did would end up producing an abundence of n/a parts cars in relatively short order.
Sorry, but I think there's no easy way to do this. I do know of at least two others working on such a "kit", and I wish them well but I suspect they're going to end up reaching the conclusion that there's simply too much work / production cost / risk for too little market demand to make it worthwhile. This keeps such conversions in the realm of "personal projects" and "curiousity" rather than a viable production item.
Nice idea though.
What you'd need MINIMUM is the turbocharger, a manifold to duct exhaust air to it, a means of control (wastegate), inlet air piping, and fuel control.
Let's go through these one at a time:
(1) Turbocharger
The selection of the "correct" turbocharger alone is a big one and will be impacted by factors such as how much power you want to make, anticipated power band, cost, mounting location, type of exhaust inlet / outlet flanges, etc. Since T04E shells are pretty common and pretty cheap with T3/T4 flanges, let's assume you go with one of these. You can probably pick one up that's REASONABLE for use with a 2.5L 4-banger for around $400 new. This will vary somewhat depending on manufacturer and reliability, but you can get 'em cheap on Ebay for in the $300-$400 range and buy them in bulk if you were to produce a "kit".
(2) Manifold
This is the one that's going to kill you. There are two precedents for this. One is the 951-style setup utilizing a crossover pipe to duct exhaust air from the stock headers to another location where the turbo is mounted. The advantage of this is that you'll (1) be able to get the turbo someplace where it's accessible and not tightly crammed in near a bunch of other stuff and (2) in an area where it will be cooled better than right near the headers. The obvious disadvantages are (1) weight of pipe, (2) expensive fabrication costs of pipe (this is substantial), (3) reduction in power due to losses of heat and kinetic energy of the exhaust gas to the turbine and (4) it's one more thing (as on the 951) in the way of the oil pan, etc. It also introduces heat (and a lot of it) into areas that might not have been intended for such heat to go, causing premature deterioration of seals, oil leaks, fires, and other fun things.
The other option that's precedented is the Callaway-type setup with a tight "block-hugger" type manifold with the turbo mounted right off of it. This is really nice from an efficiency / spool-up / simplicity stanpoint, but turbo life is compromised and considerations must be made to extend life. This could include pre and after oilers (I'll be running these) but that also jacks up the cost. As with the option #1, there is still an enormous fabrication cost to overcome.
I doubt you could get any sort of minimum production stock (quantities 20-50) of either type of manifold / crossover setup done for less than $1,000. There's a helluva lot of custom mandrel bending and / or welding in either case and the tolerances are not ridiculously tight, but call for a fabricator that can be reasonably precise as well. This ain't a job for a home mechanic with a MIG in the back yard. It would require machine shop intervention and the price will certainly reflect it.
(3) Wastegate
Again, where do you mount it? There needs to also be additional plumbing including a dump pipe / bypass pipe and the primary connection to the turbocharger turbine. Using a Tial as an available "off-the-shelf" part, it's about $200-$300 straight-up, plus the additional fabrication costs to integrate it into the manifold. This increases production costs. You also have to provide a means of control (signal line) to a boost controller of some sort. Not a big deal, but it does limit the options for placement somewhat and some intelligent selection of routing must be observed.
(4) Inlet Air Piping
Another expensive item. Depending on turbocharger placement, you're looking at between one and three separate pieces of mandrel-bent piping. Add an intercooler? There's another $300-$400 just for the intercooler and possibly more pipes. AND you have to find a mounting location that will not impede airflow to the radiator or oil cooler. For an intercooler-less option, I'd estimate the cost of piping alone at $300 per car, conservatively.
(5) Fuel Control
This is a biggie. The stock n/a injectors have a lot of extra unused flow capability that is never seen. Whether or not this is adequate to give a suitable "cushion" for low-boosting without upgrading the injectors I'm not 100% certain, but I do know that Callaway didn't think so, adding a "fifth injector" in the intake plenum that worked in tandem with the standard four. Assuming this to be the case, let's figure you go with a similar setup - that's about another $100 for an injector and plumbing and you're still faced with the problem of control. An ERL MF2 mappable injector controller or equivalent is about $200-$300 - that's one option. Alternatively you could try to obtain a supply of 951 DME boxes and rig up an adapter for the harnesses. This would be better in some ways, but a LOT of R&D work to get right. The up-front costs in terms of time, labor, etc. would be very high. It's also assuming an upgrade to 951 injectors which alone adds about $400 to the total "kit" price. For sake of arguement, let's say you can run a "fifth injector" type setup with a standalone controller for about a $400 to $500 price tag.
So let's assess:
Turbo - $400-ish
Manifold - $1,000 (or more)
Wastegate - $300-ish
Inlet Air Piping - $300-ish
Fuel Control - $500-ish
This puts us in the $2,500 range JUST for parts. It also means no intercooler, you still have to figure out an oil supply & return setup (Callaway does the supply off the pump near the filter and return through a bung on the pan), etc. You also have done nothing for the transmission, suspension, brakes, etc. You're also assuming stock engine configuration which is relatively high compression (9.5:1 or higher depending on year / spec) and cast pistons. This can certainly be done, but the engine will have far less "safety factor" built into it in case of a momentary lean condition, any sort of pinging or detonation, or errors in tuning.
Just as an "off the top of my head" number based on the research I've done for my own project, to do a turbo conversion RIGHT including the upgraded suspension, transmission, etc. is going to easily run into the $4,000-$5,000 range.
You also have to consider that while we're all crazy about our cars, the market for 944s is pretty soft. There simply aren't many of them around. EVEN IF a "kit" could be made to produce a bolt-up h.p. boost in the 200-ish range for under $3,000, I'd suspect they wouldn't sell very well and those that did would end up producing an abundence of n/a parts cars in relatively short order.
Sorry, but I think there's no easy way to do this. I do know of at least two others working on such a "kit", and I wish them well but I suspect they're going to end up reaching the conclusion that there's simply too much work / production cost / risk for too little market demand to make it worthwhile. This keeps such conversions in the realm of "personal projects" and "curiousity" rather than a viable production item.
Nice idea though.
05-24-2005, 04:16 AM
#11
The Hoffinator
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no, there your wrong - i will get the value back. I didnt heavily mod the 912. that and 912s are going up in value. the work being done is more restoration than mod. my 912 is worth about 3x what i bought it for in 97, and going up. an engine rebuild is part of normal maintenence. i did put a hotter cam in it, and a big bore kit, but a rebuild would have cost the same if i had gone with stock or more performance oriented parts.
iof i wanted a 951 i ouwld have bought a 951. if i wanted 911 power i owuld have bought a 911.
instead i have a 912. it has a little more power than most 912s.. but in the world of mods, a cam is nothing complared to what youre talking about doing.
what i was saying, in a nut shell is that it is more cost effective ion the long run to just get waht you really wanted in the 1st place.. dont turbo an NA. if you want boost, just buy the real thing, a 951
iof i wanted a 951 i ouwld have bought a 951. if i wanted 911 power i owuld have bought a 911.
instead i have a 912. it has a little more power than most 912s.. but in the world of mods, a cam is nothing complared to what youre talking about doing.
what i was saying, in a nut shell is that it is more cost effective ion the long run to just get waht you really wanted in the 1st place.. dont turbo an NA. if you want boost, just buy the real thing, a 951
05-24-2005, 04:17 AM
#12
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Bah, the kid is obviously stuck on this project. He will either come back on here with his tail between his legs saying you guys were right, or he will come back and rub it in your face if he gets this done within budget. I myself can say I have done more ludacris things with my time and money, and I have spent way more on way less. So cut him a little slack; good luck bro!
05-24-2005, 04:22 AM
#13
Campeck Rulez
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costs costs costs. heres what MY parts will cost.
turbo from member: $150
injectors from member:$150
wastegate from member:free
diverter valve from member:free
intercooler (core and custom made endtanks{by me}): $200
exhaust manifold (custom made by ME):30-70$
other assorted bits i have yet to work out :500-1200$
its all right. no one wants one. thats fine. ill do it to my car and be proud of it.
turbo from member: $150
injectors from member:$150
wastegate from member:free
diverter valve from member:free
intercooler (core and custom made endtanks{by me}): $200
exhaust manifold (custom made by ME):30-70$
other assorted bits i have yet to work out :500-1200$
its all right. no one wants one. thats fine. ill do it to my car and be proud of it.
05-24-2005, 04:23 AM
#14
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yet again rennlisters being ******** for no reason. Leave the guy alone, he's not spending your money. Rennlisters can be so ****.
05-24-2005, 04:24 AM
#15
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its all right. no one wants one. thats fine. ill do it to my car and be proud of it.