pete944

You guys are nuts!
I'll let my S2 go for a mere $500,000.

KLR

I somewhat agree with Matt. I certainly wouldn't ever call a 944 an investment. Generally, it seems that cars move from being "just a used car" to being sought after around the time that those who lusted after them but couldn't afford them when they were new (read: junior high to college kids) hit their forties (read: at age 25-30, give or take). I'm sure that top notch examples of our cars will begin to appreciate then, as well. I think that the number and falling prices of used/off-lease boxsters certainly pushes down on the values of our cars at present (directly for 951s, S2 cabs, and 968s -- indirectly for N/As), but when our cars hit 25 yrs old, it will be a different story. Boxsters will always be better cars than 944s by most objective standards, but, by the same token, 944s are better than 914s and 911SCs are better than most long hood 911s no matter how you measure. However, it doesn't matter, as the buyers of long hood 911s and 914s are looking for something other than just objectively measured performance. Once our cars are in this club, they won't really be competing with Boxsters, but will rather be constrained by the prices of more desirable cars from the same era (e.g., 911s).

So... I'm sure that our cars will appreciate over the next decade. But... just as with 914s (and long hood 911s outside of S and RS cars), I don't think that the appreciation will amount to more than a couple of very nice vacations. Certainly not enough to be terribly relevant to your financial well-being.

Matt H

1) The 16V S cars will never have much value and soon you will see them as the least valuable of all the 944 series. They have ALL the problems of the 16V head and very little gain. They have the less desirable NA front as well. Wishful thinking to assume they will go up in value at any real appreciation rate.

2) 944 Turbo and S2 production is less than the first 1/2 year of 1968 Camaro production, if I recall right from the last time I looked this up. While not as rare as 1967 Aston Martin DB5s the 944 cars are pretty rare, already.

3) Value and appreciation have a lot more to do with audience than the car. The reason a 1969 Firebird or Cuda is valuable is that all the guys who couldnt afford them in 1969 are now old enough to have a play toy. I.e. there is a market for them. They were desirable to begin with (well most muscle cars were, cretainly not all) and people still want them. 944s were never all that desirable and they never will be. The 911 has always been the desirable car in the lineup and I see no change in that.

4) I think you will see cars on this list start to go up in selling price (not necessarily value). This is common among enthusiasts. An E34 5 sells for MUCH more on the BMW forum than a similar car on ebay or autotrader would. I think that on this board there is a market to drive price up.
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hacker-pschorr

I know I'm in the minority but I like the NA front end better than the turbo/S2. Value is what somebody is willing to pay and what someone else is willing to sell for. I've been offered $10k for my 944S, I still have it. Least valuable? I think the 83-84 will always be in that boat.

I don't think anybody in their right mind would ever think a 944 is an investment. My original comment was to say they will probably go up in value over the next 20 years - so will inflation. I also think that once that in the next 15-20 years parts will become even more hard to find unless somebody starts up a successfull business like 928 International for 944's. Even with 928's there are some original parts that are no longer available, from anywhere. Porsche Cars is making it very difficult for 3rd party's to do business with them.
I was recently informed by my mechanic that there are no longer any returns of Porsche parts - ZERO returns, no exceptions.
Ever order a part from the dealer only to find the wrong part was delivered? Too bad, it's yours. This is the latest step Porsche has done to show the market they want nothing to do with the older cars.

KLR

Being rare certainly doesn't equate to being valuable. That's for sure. I doubt if anyone will even remember the original S in a few years, as there don't seem to be many left as it is. As for 944s on the whole, don't be so sure that there won't be significant appreciation on a % basis (similar to 914s). Sure, they made a lot of them, they weren't the most desirable car in the Porsche line up in their day, and they don't rust out. But, they made a lot of 914s and 911Ts, they weren't the most desirable car in the Porsche line up in their day, and they've appreciated a bunch on a % basis as people who desired p-cars in the early 70s but couldn't afford them have come of age. As for rust... I'm not sure that it's the real culprit in wiping out huge numbers of these cars. Half of all porsches are sold in CA, and, in general, it's a looming big mechanical bill that has and always will be the final straw that turns most cars into parts cars.

Does this make these cars good investments? Is any car a good investment? Not really on a purely financial basis, with limited exceptions (e.g., mopars, ferraris at some points in time). When you factor in maintenance, insurance, storage, care, feeding, hours, transportation, gas, gripes, GERD, etc., cars aren't much of an investment relative to the S&P 500. Even if you got in on a 1973 RSR brand new at $25k and sold it today for $250k, you'd have been better off buying an S&P index fund over the same period, particularly on a risk adjusted basis. But, the joy (and transportation) that you got from the RSR (or Tom from his firebird) has additional value, which is why we own them anyway.

To me, the real deal that matters is that I've got a car that won't depreciate any further, costs a manageable amount to maintain, is a hoot to drive, show and own, and is among the cars that I lusted after in junior high school.

PS: What you see in this thread is pretty much the entirety of what I got out of my Wharton education. Go figure.

Matt H

You are in the huge minority...ever seen someone say, Can I Convert my Turbo nose to NA? As more and more S models die from the same failure the value will plummet even further. If someone offered you 10K for it and you didnt sell you need a head examination.

It could be reasoned that the most valuable of the cars will be the 89NAs but I highly doubt it as their value is already diminished by the Turbos.

To be honest to have this discussion you really should break the cars down by variant. It is extremely unlikely that an NA will ever truly appreciate in value beyond the rate of inflation. It is somewhat unlikely that an S/S2 will appreciate beyond inflation. It is unlikely that a Turbo (non-S) will appreciate beyond inflation. It is more believable that a low mileage untouched Turbo S or 89 T will appreciate beyond inflation.

Get my drift?
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KLR

If these cars increase in price at the rate of inflation, they will not double in value for approximately 24 years. I don't think that it will take 24 years for a pretty good $4,000 944 to become an $8,000 944. If the future resembles the past, that will likely occur in no more than 8-12 years. Of course, from a practical standpoint, this is a rounding error when viewed in contrast to new car depreciation, what $4k will otherwise buy you in this world, and maintenance costs. Even good examples of the lowly AMC pacer and gremlin are currently "out-pacing" inflation.

hacker-pschorr

Matt - I never disagreed with you. My first few posts were not meant to be 100% serious.

The $10k story is very true. Until I threw the rod bearing he would call me all the time wanting to know when I would sell it. I get an e-mail's now and then wanting to know when it will be back on the road. I keep telling him once it's done, $10k is an insult considering it was too low before everything under the hood was new.

I look at it this way - what would I do with the $10k? Is what I would buy with the $10k something I would rather have over my 944S? The answer is no so I kept the car. Would I rather have a 951 over my 944S? Maybe, but I doubt I'd be able to find a 951 in the same overall shape as my 944S for $10k (once it's back together).

icat

Matt - Never say Never.
All cars - in my opinion - will appreciate in value as a function of time and inflation. The question is only how quickly the "time" comes. And I guess you should always try to determine if the "time" is likely to be in your lifetime.
As for the 944S - I believe the first of any car offered will hold a value as well. In this case, the 16v engine will command a value unto its own. Now that is not to say it will surpass the value of other 944 series cars - just that it will hold a spot of its own in collectors hearts (once again - my opinion only - we'll have to wait and see what actually happens).
BTW - I did not buy my 951 for its resale value. I just like the car and enjoy owning it. I'd suggest anyone looking to a 944 series car as an investment should have their head examined.

Matt H

I am not saying never. I AM saying that as much as I would love for it to be true I seriously doubt there is going to be any real value in 944 series cars.

I agree, I bought it to drive. As an investment there are far better choices.
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Tony K

In the early 90s, you couldn't give a 914 away. They were pseudo-Porsches that weren't really fast, and were past the age of being able to dazzle people with their looks, being obviously of an older "generation" of cars. Kind of like what the 944 is today.

And look at the 914 now. Nice examples are pulling in 2-3 times what they did 10-15 years ago. Not a lot, but definitely more. I would expect the 944 to do the same. I would expect a 944 that is worth $4000 today to be worth $7000-8000 in same mileage and condition 10-15 years from now. One thing that it *does* have over other Porsche models is greater familiarity to a larger audience, simply because there were over 100,000 of them. One thing that keeps a lot of the values of European sports cars down in this country is that demand is low simply because no one ever heard of one - can't want what you don't know exists!

hacker-pschorr

Tony,
based on that logic, 928's will be priceless in 15 years.

Matt H

Erik - you got the point.

Even if your 944 doubled in value in 10 years (which it wont) woud it really be worth anything? We arent dealing with Shelby GT500KRs. If the average 944 doubled in value it would now be worth a whopping 8K dollars, quick call the broker!

I know it is hard to deal with but these cars have virtually no value now (I have passed on numerous 500 dollar cars) and there is no reason to believe they are going to gain at a pace any greater than inflation.
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Tony K

How did you arrive at that?

hacker-pschorr

Tony - there are far fewer 928's on the road, less than 60k made worldwide. They are more desierable now - been holding steady for a while.

As Matt pointed out, the Boxster will nip into the 944 market very soon. You would have to be a very dedicated 944/968 buff to pay $15k for a 968 cabrio when a newer Boxster with less miles is almost the same price (yes they are that cheap). I don't see Boxster's affecting 928's as much (a little, but not in a big way). The 928 appeals to a whole different market / person than the 944/boxster crowd.

The 928GTS will hold their value for a very long time if not go up in value, maybe the GT's as well. Other than that the 928's are in the same boat as the 944.