Dealer is trying to rip me off!
10-11-2004, 10:43 PM
#61
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Baton Rouge/ New Orleans, LA
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
StoogeMoe, According to the Parts and Technical reference guide, at some point inventory of the older 951 106 021 01 was to be depleted and all cars would get the newer 951 106 021 10 pump at that time.
Here's what the guide says verbatim-
A new coolant pump is installed on all 4 cylinder engines since July 1986 beginning
with the following engine numbers.
(only this one pertains to you)
45H00086
This new version pump has modifications to the seals and pump body in the area
of the vent bore. In addition, a guard rail is installed and the toothed belt roller is
offset to guide thye toothed belt.
When repairing cars from start of production 1983, install the new version coolant
pump. The following parts must be ordered for use with the new version coolant
pump. (The following parts may or may not come with the new pump).
1-Guard rail - PN 944 105 213 01- Qty. 1
2-Lock nuts- PN 999 084 092 02- Qty. 2
2-Roller - PN 944 105 241 03- Qty. 1
Roller diameter is 46.2mm (formerly 32.0mm)
This info is Porsche dealer issued so it seems the service manager's comment- "we put in what Porsche says to put in" is off base. It's not just a matter of getting the one that the car came with IMO as the pump was obviously improved re. the changes to the seal and vent bore. This was actually a technical service bulletin #1 on page 144 of the 3rd edition Parts & Technical Reference Catalog for Water Cooled Models.
Maybe you should ask the SM if he's ever heard of it......
Here's what the guide says verbatim-
A new coolant pump is installed on all 4 cylinder engines since July 1986 beginning
with the following engine numbers.
(only this one pertains to you)
45H00086
This new version pump has modifications to the seals and pump body in the area
of the vent bore. In addition, a guard rail is installed and the toothed belt roller is
offset to guide thye toothed belt.
When repairing cars from start of production 1983, install the new version coolant
pump. The following parts must be ordered for use with the new version coolant
pump. (The following parts may or may not come with the new pump).
1-Guard rail - PN 944 105 213 01- Qty. 1
2-Lock nuts- PN 999 084 092 02- Qty. 2
2-Roller - PN 944 105 241 03- Qty. 1
Roller diameter is 46.2mm (formerly 32.0mm)
This info is Porsche dealer issued so it seems the service manager's comment- "we put in what Porsche says to put in" is off base. It's not just a matter of getting the one that the car came with IMO as the pump was obviously improved re. the changes to the seal and vent bore. This was actually a technical service bulletin #1 on page 144 of the 3rd edition Parts & Technical Reference Catalog for Water Cooled Models.
Maybe you should ask the SM if he's ever heard of it......
10-11-2004, 10:49 PM
#63
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Baton Rouge/ New Orleans, LA
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BTW- ALL mechanical labor SHOULD compensate for what is called "overlap"....!
20 hrs labor was waaaaay out of line.
Ask what method (Shop Key, Mitchell, Chilton) they use to determine labor times.
I have all three labor guides (well my dad does) and can post two of them here for you if interested.
The Shop Key is a computer software at his shop but he can bring the books home for me.
20 hrs labor was waaaaay out of line.
Ask what method (Shop Key, Mitchell, Chilton) they use to determine labor times.
I have all three labor guides (well my dad does) and can post two of them here for you if interested.
The Shop Key is a computer software at his shop but he can bring the books home for me.
10-11-2004, 11:57 PM
#65
Race Car
I'd definately want to find out what warantee that rebuilt pump comes with, rebuilt pumps aren't known for longevity.
The dealer left out 2 options:
944.106.021.22-NEW 944 waterpump
951.106.021.10-NEW turbo waterpump
The old style pumpsare NLA, all new pumps are updated parts.
If you didn't agree to a rebuilt pump before the job was done, you have another reason to go after them. If new versus rebuilt wasn't discussed before the job was done try telling them that a rebuilt pump is unacceptable and that they need to take it out and replace it with a NEW pump. I'd also want to recover the cost of my time to pull (and reinstall) the covers and make TWO trips back there to PROVE their mistake to them. It's not like they were willing to realize they screwed up after the first trip, you had to do the work and make a second trip to show them that you have a valid complaint.
The dealer left out 2 options:
944.106.021.22-NEW 944 waterpump
951.106.021.10-NEW turbo waterpump
The old style pumpsare NLA, all new pumps are updated parts.
If you didn't agree to a rebuilt pump before the job was done, you have another reason to go after them. If new versus rebuilt wasn't discussed before the job was done try telling them that a rebuilt pump is unacceptable and that they need to take it out and replace it with a NEW pump. I'd also want to recover the cost of my time to pull (and reinstall) the covers and make TWO trips back there to PROVE their mistake to them. It's not like they were willing to realize they screwed up after the first trip, you had to do the work and make a second trip to show them that you have a valid complaint.
10-12-2004, 04:24 AM
#66
Pro
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 634
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Zero10
Good to hear that they're getting this sorted out. I think it's time for that mechanic to move over to a ford dealership or something.
10-12-2004, 10:54 AM
#67
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by 87_944s
StoogeMoe, According to the Parts and Technical reference guide, at some point inventory of the older 951 106 021 01 was to be depleted and all cars would get the newer 951 106 021 10 pump at that time.
...
...
What I find amazing is calling three dealers and getting three different answers about what pump to use. Surely this can't be that complicated. Aren't they all using the same books or software?
I forget what book they used for the labor amounts. It was a BIG thick book, not software that they used. They should have a software program that figures all this stuff out including overlap. It wouldn't be that hard. Presto, no conflict.
10-12-2004, 05:10 PM
#69
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Granite Falls, Washington
Posts: 1,637
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
StoogeMoe, I believe I have the same Parts and Technical Reference Catalog. It has this "Tech Bulletin" in the back of as previously stated. It is the 1999 Edition, and it is published by Porsche Cars North America, Inc. Catalog Part Number- PNA 000 147 A.
FWIW, there is a service bulletin I have thru my membership at ALLDATA.com for these cars that states about the same thing. It is TSB # 8713 dated June 22, 1987. In this TSB (which I believe is the same as distributed to the dealerships when first available, but may eventually get integrated into the FSM over time and updates to it), it specifically states:
_________________________________________________________________
This new version pump has modifications to the seals and pump body in the area of the vent bore (arrow A). In addition, a guard rail (Arrow B) is installed and the toothed belt roller (Arrow C) is offset to guide the toothed belt.
Coolant Pump Part numbers
Old/ New
924S,944,944S--- 944.106.021.13/ 944.106.021.16
944 Tubo--- 951.106.021.01/ 951.106.021.04
Note: 951.106.021.04 will not be available for pre-1987 models until current inventory of 951.106.021.01 is depleted.
When repairing cars from start of production 1983, install the new version coolant pump. The following parts must also be ordered for use with the new version coolant pump. (The following may or may not come with the new pump).
1- Guard Rail –PN 944.105.213.01 – Qty. 1
2- Locknuts - PN 999.084.092.02 Qty. 2
3- Roller - PN 944.105.241.03 – Qty. 1 (Roller dia. Is 46.2mm, formerly 32.0mm)
The gasket between the coolant pump and the crankcase has not been changed.
__________________________________________________________________
The only reason I put this up is, this specifically tells the dealer to replace the older pumps with the newer style, with the belt gaurd on it (new, I'm sure). However, this info may have been rolled into later updates to the FSM, and not as specific?
There is much more to this TSB (and as you can see, I didn't add the pictures from it either), as it continues on showing how to modify the belt cover, and even supplies a template that can be use to do so with.
Above info for reference only.......my cheesy disclaimer. Good luck!
Lego, I feel the same way........besides being kinda cheap!
FWIW, there is a service bulletin I have thru my membership at ALLDATA.com for these cars that states about the same thing. It is TSB # 8713 dated June 22, 1987. In this TSB (which I believe is the same as distributed to the dealerships when first available, but may eventually get integrated into the FSM over time and updates to it), it specifically states:
_________________________________________________________________
This new version pump has modifications to the seals and pump body in the area of the vent bore (arrow A). In addition, a guard rail (Arrow B) is installed and the toothed belt roller (Arrow C) is offset to guide the toothed belt.
Coolant Pump Part numbers
Old/ New
924S,944,944S--- 944.106.021.13/ 944.106.021.16
944 Tubo--- 951.106.021.01/ 951.106.021.04
Note: 951.106.021.04 will not be available for pre-1987 models until current inventory of 951.106.021.01 is depleted.
When repairing cars from start of production 1983, install the new version coolant pump. The following parts must also be ordered for use with the new version coolant pump. (The following may or may not come with the new pump).
1- Guard Rail –PN 944.105.213.01 – Qty. 1
2- Locknuts - PN 999.084.092.02 Qty. 2
3- Roller - PN 944.105.241.03 – Qty. 1 (Roller dia. Is 46.2mm, formerly 32.0mm)
The gasket between the coolant pump and the crankcase has not been changed.
__________________________________________________________________
The only reason I put this up is, this specifically tells the dealer to replace the older pumps with the newer style, with the belt gaurd on it (new, I'm sure). However, this info may have been rolled into later updates to the FSM, and not as specific?
There is much more to this TSB (and as you can see, I didn't add the pictures from it either), as it continues on showing how to modify the belt cover, and even supplies a template that can be use to do so with.
Above info for reference only.......my cheesy disclaimer. Good luck!
Lego, I feel the same way........besides being kinda cheap!
10-12-2004, 05:38 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Granite 944. I was aware of that TSB. I had the "good" dealer from OH look it up. It is an old TSB from 87 and the position on this was changed by Porsche a couple of times. See my previous post about current viable pump options.
10-12-2004, 06:15 PM
#71
The labor charges are not only completely out of line they show your dealer to be totally inept. The books (guides, usually Mitchell) ALWAYS combine jobs. What they did is akin to the following:
R&R Flywheel - 14.2 hrs
R&R Rear Main Seal - 14.4 hrs
Total Labor Charge 29.0 hrs
It doesnt work like that. You are pretty patient, I would be seriously ripping some aholes. The state AG and I would be having a long, long talk.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
R&R Flywheel - 14.2 hrs
R&R Rear Main Seal - 14.4 hrs
Total Labor Charge 29.0 hrs
It doesnt work like that. You are pretty patient, I would be seriously ripping some aholes. The state AG and I would be having a long, long talk.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
10-12-2004, 06:52 PM
#73
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Toledo and Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 1,152
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by StoogeMoe
Granite 944. I was aware of that TSB. I had the "good" dealer from OH look it up. It is an old TSB from 87 and the position on this was changed by Porsche a couple of times. See my previous post about current viable pump options.
Thanks,
10-12-2004, 07:12 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Tony K
Who is said "good" dealer?
Thanks,
Thanks,
Stoddard Imported Car in Willoughby OH.
