Tom R.

i thought a three year old with say 25k for say $18k would have been nice. that was my thinking a year ago. now i think i will be able to get that car for closer to $12k in two years.

The incentives are just starting. i read in autoweek that they sold like 3000 cars ahd had another 9000 waiting to be sold. with a sticker of 33k, it would be very very hard to pass a new leftover up for say 24k and 3% financing.

I got about 9k off sticker on the 01 aurora in march 02. If I look at a new GTO/GM car my wife will either divorce me or enjoy telling me i dont learn from my mistakes.

JediAgent

Are you guys suggesting there are alot of problems with these new GTOS's (i meant revised as in badge replacement on a monaro) and that Pontiac has created a good car with bad problems that we as more intelligent (face it if you can use a computer your more intelligent than ALOT of people) can take advantage of by buying one cheap and fixing the problems? Or are you saying its a good car with minor engineering design flaws combined with poor demographic attractiveness that make it a really bad seller? I've always thought a GTO would be a nice daliy driver if i could get one with super low interest from a dealer with a good price tag, but i never thought they would drop in price that much. I thought they sold for just under 30k, which puts it out of my league.

EDIT
btw, whats a TSB?

Tom R.

I'm not saying antything bad about the GTO. it didnt sell because people said the styling was bland etc.

I bought a new 01 Olds Aurora with the Northstar V8 in March 02. The six year warranty is a joke because the dealers are incompetent, and the term GM Customer Service is an oxymoron. My car is probably a good car, and would be a great car if bought used.

Customer service said they don't care what an engineer in the warranty department told me in an email from GMs warranty department that cited the head of the motor division! Customer service then instructed the dealer not to replace the crank sensors unless they could duplicate the problem. After the work was done, the dealership accidently attached the TSB to my receipt. when I read that it said replace the sensors (because they had problems with them and changed vendors per the head of the motor division) I went nuts. Imagine driving a new 37k car with your wife and child in it at around 40mph with a NY City bus in back of you and the motor just stops! it happened to me. Can you say Pinto!

It is one thing to have a defect and fix it. It is another thing to put my families life in grave danger because nobody gives a rats **** about the person purchasing your product.

Edit TSB = Technical Service Bulletin. go to www.alldata.com and punch in your car. if you pay you can read the whole thing. it is cool to see your symptoms listed.

Tom R.

Jedi,
Here is the TSB I cited to customer service and the service manager that neither read. Sorry for the hijack.

Engine Controls - SES Lamp ON/Driveability/DTC's

File In Section: 06 - Engine/Propulsion System

Bulletin No.: 02-06-04-019

Date: April, 2002

TECHNICAL

Subject:
Intermittent Engine Idle Instability, Hard/No Restart or Decel Stalls, SES Lamp Illuminated, DTCs P0335, P0336, P0385, P0386 or P1599 May Be Set (Diagnose and Repair)

Models:
2000-2001 Cadillac DeVille, Eldorado, Seville
2001 Oldsmobile Aurora
with 4.0L or 4.6L Engine (VINs C, Y, 9 - RPOs L47, LD8, L37)

Condition

Some owners may comment on an intermittent engine idle speed stability concern, hard or no restart condition or a decel engine stall. This may also be accompanied by a Service Engine Soon light being illuminated. Upon investigation, the PCM may indicate one of the following DTC codes: P0335, P0336, P0385, P0386 or P1599.

Cause

The above conditions may be caused by multiple concerns with the crank sensor or the PCM.

Correction

If the vehicle has any of the crank sensor codes P0335, P0336, P0385, or P0386 set, then the following should be done:

Inspect both of the crank sensor terminals for signs of poor connection or corrosion of both crank sensors. Pin drag test all four terminals.

^ Inspect the crank sensor circuit wires for signs of damage.

^ Inspect the crank sensor circuits at the PCM for poor connections. The crank sensor terminals should also be drag tested.

^ Remove the crank sensors and check for any debris on the sensor.

^ Verify crank sensor location (A on the bottom and B on the top) and verify that the sensor circuit wires are in the correct cavities.

^ Inspect the date code on the sensor. If it is before 0276, replace the crank shaft sensor and perform case learn.

^ If the date code is past 0276, verify the PCM grounds. A voltage drop test should be less than 20 mV.

^ If the PCM ground circuit verification is acceptable, then follow published PCM diagnostics.


If the vehicle has an idle or decel stall, or near stall concern and only has DTC P1599 set, then the following should be done:

^ Verify the system power and ground connections for the PCM.

^ Verify crank sensor location (A on the bottom and B on the top) and verify that the sensor circuit wires are in the correct cavities in the harness.

^ Remove the crank sensors and check for any debris on the sensor.

^ Verify that the fuel pressure regulator is not leaking fuel past the diaphragm.

^ Perform the injector balance drop test and verify even pressure drops on all injectors.

^ Inspect and clean the EGR passages, as necessary.

^ Inspect and clean the IAC passages, as necessary.

JediAgent

I would readily jump on a GTO if i could find it at a dealership for under 20k, but i don't know if that would happen anytime soon. What are they going for now?

Tom, i take it even if it was a great price you would not do it because of the poor quality of warranty due to customer service being more like customer mis-service? I've never owned a new from the dealer car, so im not even sure what a warranty feels like.

Tom R.

The sticker on a GTO is 33. I think they can be had for say 28 and the 04s will drop even more when the formal announcement for the 05s comes out.

the Aurora is a great car for what it is. a roomy comfortable sedan that can take turns nicely and get out of its own way. it has all the safety features, side airbags, traction control, stability control and the same 12 way seats recaro made for Porsche in the mid 80s.

If customer service was not so uncooperative "mis-service" is correct I would have talked my buddy into replacing his A6 with a bonneville. instead I steered him into an acura TL. two weeks later his mom traded in her 90 lexus for a TL. Thats two sales customer service cost GM and counting.

As far as real reliability goes, the car is fine. It is probably the best used deal out there now for a four door sedan since they discontinued Olds. The GTO will probably be a great used car in two years. 350hp, IRS, top notch australian build quality, etc. for say 12-17k.

Matt H

Tom, original plan was for 12K car per year. They are going to be VERY hard pressed to reach 4K cars this year. By mid next year they will be giving them away. Cant wait.
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JediAgent

I agree. If by annoucement of the '05 and mid-next taking delivery of the '05 they won't want the '04's they haven't sold. They would practically give them away. Question: When Pontiac said they planned 12k GTO's sold per year, did the dealerships buy based on those numbers? Would a dealership have enough in stock now that 6 monthes from now, they still might have some '04 models that would never sell? Or would they send them back to Pontiac? I really don't know anything about buying cars from a dealership, but you guys have really perked my interest. Anyone know what a dealership pays for a GTO?

Tom R.

The little blurb i read in autoweek about a month ago said 3k cars were sold and gm had an inventory of 9k cars or something to that effect. gm owns them. the dealers get a few here and there i believe. we gotta get a board member that works at a new car dealership to fill us in on the details.

Tissue or cost is usually about 10% less then sticker. then there are other incentives we the consumer dont know about.

JediAgent

Would a dealership take a large hit on a GTO they already own/have on the lot to get rid of it?

Tom R.

I don't know who takes the hit. I do know i got 9k+ off the sticker on my 01 aurora in march 02, and about 8k off the 27k sticker of my 90 RX7 convertible in august 91, a month before the 92s were due to arrive.

Serge944

I have to agree. Thats nothing less than...F*cked up. Deal with your personaly issues on a private basis and get your panties out of a bunch.

As for the whole eram thing...i see NO point in trying to make an N/A faster. You want a fast car, buy a fast car. Funny how people can never just be content.

bpp944

Tom's Right, Check your TSB. I can honestly say there's nothing like being informed...

iloveporsches

Well, now that's a silly attitude. A stock 951 isn't all that fast, but you see plenty of people modding them. Personally, I'd rather build a fast car than buy one ready-made.