Danno

" I normally expected judging like this to be pretty consistent and unbiased. "

Not when there's people around. I helped out on several of the Santa Barbara Concours d'Elegance shows a couple years back. They had the Ferrari club and the Rolls Royce club come out. Jay Leno was there with his twin-turbo Bugati, etc. You would not believe the bickering and back-room politics that was going on in regards to judging!

"Oh, and at this show, the judges were even scoring my car while they looked. They score sheet wasnt even broken up. After "viewing the car", they would retreat away from all the cars in private and "discuss.""

This should be illegal. It's like the jury having lunch to talk about a case outside of the courtroom. All the judges should have to submit their score-sheets without having seen or discussed anything with any of the other judges. Sounds like you need to start making friends with people higher-up in the PCA. Start putting your buddies into decision-making slots...

UDPride

Main problem (not really a problem) is at good car shows, the cars are so competitively close that grades can be very subjective. But you know that going in. The best car doesnt always win. And everybody knows it. I dont really have a problem with it as long as the show parameters are spelled out before the judging. If I get beat on subjectiveness, Im not going to hold it against a judge for prioritizing some things over others. perhaps its originality. perhaps its paintwork. perhaps its the condition of the engine stickers. who knows. every judge isnt the same.. 100 people would judge a car show 50 different ways. its just the nature of the beast. some judges favor a 100,000 mile car over a 25,000 mile car if the cars are close. So be it. Even with the grading, theres subjectivity in the grades. A clean bumper to one person is filthy to another. If you go home disappointed every time you think your car deserved a ribbon and didnt get one, you will never last. Again, not an indictment of anyone here. Just general opinion.

Last show I was at a flawless 84 nougat brown(?) 911 carrera that finished 1st a year ago finished 5th this year. car was incredible. I finished 3rd. next year i may not get a whiff. thats just how these things go.

hoffman912

well.. at least youre not a 912 always getting stuck in the early 911 class, getting your *** kicked by someone with an S or a carrera. some guys admitidly have cars better than i and i dont care.. its cool.. but they could at least take the time to give her a once over and check her out and not snub your nose at it just cause it says 912

and at least most know your car is really a porsche.

"hey thats a volkswagen engine isnt it!?" no you ****ing retard.. its not.. its a 356 engine. .. **** sucking son of a bitches.. it gets old after a while.

sorry end rant

ERAU-944

yeah, thats the answer 'more horsepower'

normally your suggestion to 'convert' is pretty funny, but this is getting out of hand. but i'm sure you know none of us would ever think to convert such a gorgeous car like tony's

ah, and now i know why 911 owners don't like us, you're going around making us look like douchebags. great job!

UDPride

Blue S2

HAHA, Volkswagen! I can't wait for the day that people just WAKE UP and realize that there is not too much difference historically between VW and Porsche!!! The parts bin sharing has been going on since day 1, and its extensive. ON EVERY MODEL!!!!!! EVERY SINGLE MODEL has VW/Audi PARTS!!!!!!!!

Damn, i cant stand when people complain about that!
I mean it would be one thing if you found like... Ford parts, or Honda parts in your car. Ok ide be like wtf! if i found out chevy was putting my engine together or something... but VW ????? Its all in the family!!!! Its like being pissed that your sister chose the same profession! Who cares!

Vaino

Concours is a funny business. I'm the Concours Chair for NNJR-PCA, and as Dave pointed out, I too have a waterpumper. The problem isn't intentional, put a matter of experience. I've judged at Parade, and I too have been a "victim" of lack of knowledge on the 924/944/928 series. Individuals who are experts on their model Porsche often have but on airs to be experts on all Porsches. It is sad but true, but these people are just ordinary people, with normal faults. I don't pretend to be an expert on all models, but I do have a great deal of first hand experience on the waterpumpers. (I still have alot to learn however) That is where most Concours fail in Judging. What is true in one model line doesn't necessary carry over to another. The Chairman's responsibility to to separate the lack of knoweldge by procedure. Case in point, a standard judging sheet. If a judge deducts points they must declare in detail why the points are taken off. All cars should be assumed to be perfect, and points are taken down from there. When it found there is a conflict, often times the owner will be the subject matter expert (Even at Parade Level). It is the responsibility of the cars owner to raise the issue, and it is the Chairman responsibility to make sure there is a fair a balanced review. The head of judge (usually the Chairman is smaller regions), must instruct the judges to use consistent patterns (i.e., looking that the front left tire on every car). Otherwise you aren't being fair.
I know this first hand unfortunately from last years Parade. My car was being judged for "Preservation Class". The judges noticed that the Color Codes didn't match the Certicate of Autheticity Color Code, and the car was out of contention. Being a first time Parade participant, was not well informed on procedure. I should have protested, and it would have been turned over, and I would have won. The truth was on non-waterpumper the numbers do match, but on all 924/944s the Cert has the Color Order Number, and the car has the Color Code, they should never match! If the judges had been consistent, they would have found this mistake on every 924/944 they judged. I wrote a detailed letter outlining the issues (Noting strongly the lack of knoweldge on the waterpumper), but never heard anything back unforturnately. The experience made me more attuned to the problems in Concours Judging, and the foundation of how we judge in NNJR-PCA. Fair, open and balanced.
Don't let a bad judge or a single bad experience get you down. You are caring for your car for yourself, the judging is only a validation of your efforts. Don't assume the judges are subject matter experts, but don't "get in there face either". Remember, they are normal folks, unpaid volunteers in fact, who took the time so you could show your car.

Take a look at my writeup on being jedged, maybe it will help.

http://www.**********/Whattoexpect.html

Peckster

I know what your problem is. Those green tail lights!

If you guys think this is political, try racing sailboats. Every club seems to have their own take on the rules.

M758

Well I used to show my 84 944 at at least two concour's per yer.

It would show in a 924/944/928 class for cars 10 years old or older unrestorted.

They would inspection outside, inside including cargo area and engine.

Car won its class every time it was shown (6-8) times and won the division once or twice. Even one People's choice award one year.


Anyway while it always did well in class it was often found lacking to most early 911's espcially those owen by the Zone rep.

Well in it's last show even after having been at this local show in my region for the past 5 years and my being pretty active in the club I had a 996 guy wanting to display my car behing some hugh statue basicly out of the way of everthing else. Really pissed me off. My parnets were showing their 91 928 in extrior/interior only division. The guy also tried to give them a crappy spot. We protested profusely and he left pissed as we kept out good spots. Anyway my 84 won its class again and was 2nd or 3rd in the division. The 928 got a very second in pretty large 10 car group. At awards time they award to 5th in the boxster class and only for first in class my parents 928 was in. Talk about P O ed. My mom was ready to go off the handle on that one.

Anyway since they I have quit showing the 84 944 and turened it in to a daily driver. My parents have show the 928 a couple more times, but only an neighboring region where they are little more friendly. Even so they missed last year. We got tired of the cleaning cycles over and over again only to feel like you get the shaft and even if you win what do you get?

Nah, We have put our energy into driving the cars and racing. Sure still nice to have a clean car, but hell there is SUPPOSED To be grease on the damb door latches. It kind of makes them WORK!

Some Pics of my 84 944 now a daily driver

Campeck

icat

M758 - That is an incredible example of an early 944! VERY NICE!

AndyK

Man, that's one SWEET '84! Love the grey interior!
And that head-on shot is awsome! Cover material!

Charlotte944

I used to see the same sort of "judging" at scale R/C shows. If the show was sponsored by the local fixed wing (plank) club, none of us rotor heads would ever place.

However, planks and helos don't compete against each other aerobatically, which is good, 'cause I don't know of any planks that can do an inverted hover 2" off the ground.

With that said, is there any way to build a 944 that will smoke 911s on the track?

M758

Icat, Andy... Thanks Guys

Car is actually Brown & tan not gray although pics kind of make it look that way.

Cliff,
Sure you can build a 944 that will smoke 911's at the track. Two big questions which 911's and how much money?

944S2NUT

We can't place 1st cause we all own inferior crappy 944s!