is the 951 cat a 3-way? california smog saga
06-22-2004, 01:31 PM
#1
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is the 951 cat a 3-way? california smog saga
hi guys!
still trying to get my car to pass cali smog... put a freshly rebuilt cat in, and it still seems a bit high on NOx. just wondering:
1) is the catalytic converter on these cars 2-way or 3-way?
2) should an '87 951 be required to pass NOx in california? or is it maybe so old and never had a 3-way cat, and my mechanic is using the wrong requirements?
since putting the new cat in, the HC and CO have dropped to well within limits, but the NOx is still average 605, which although the last time they tested it the limit was 791, he says this is too high. is it that it can never even momentarily go above 791?
thanks for any help!
A
still trying to get my car to pass cali smog... put a freshly rebuilt cat in, and it still seems a bit high on NOx. just wondering:
1) is the catalytic converter on these cars 2-way or 3-way?
2) should an '87 951 be required to pass NOx in california? or is it maybe so old and never had a 3-way cat, and my mechanic is using the wrong requirements?
since putting the new cat in, the HC and CO have dropped to well within limits, but the NOx is still average 605, which although the last time they tested it the limit was 791, he says this is too high. is it that it can never even momentarily go above 791?
thanks for any help!
A
06-22-2004, 05:15 PM
#3
Drifting
Originally posted by SoCal Driver
Calidorfia has lowered the limits in the last two years. Now they expect that older cars have lower emissions than when they were new.
Calidorfia has lowered the limits in the last two years. Now they expect that older cars have lower emissions than when they were new.
06-22-2004, 05:47 PM
#4
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Back in the '80s, most mechanics had a "friend" that would pass you for a price. We had a beautiful '78 Jag XJ12L with an SBC in it from 1983 to 1987 in LA. My father bought the car in 1983 with 30k on the clock with the intent of doing the conversion. Imagine doing that now with a 1999 XJ12. Of course, I suppose that you can actually buy a 1999 XJ8 instead.
Anyway, that car had no hope of being smog legal unless the motor were transplanted from a 1978 or newer chebby, complete with all of the smog hardware. And that just wasn't gonna happen; even a new 1983 Corvette or Camaro motor was pretty underwhelming at the time. Nevertheless, every time it needed to be smogged, we just dropped it off with the conversion guy and, lo and behold, back it came with a certificate.
Selling that car was a terrible mistake. There was nothing better at the time than being dropped off at junior high in that car with the V8 burbling through dual exhausts. There are many cool cars in LA, but that one always drew a glance everywhere it went. It was the ultimate sleeper. Sadly, it's virtually impossible to find a lump today in the condition that car was in.
Anyway, that car had no hope of being smog legal unless the motor were transplanted from a 1978 or newer chebby, complete with all of the smog hardware. And that just wasn't gonna happen; even a new 1983 Corvette or Camaro motor was pretty underwhelming at the time. Nevertheless, every time it needed to be smogged, we just dropped it off with the conversion guy and, lo and behold, back it came with a certificate.
Selling that car was a terrible mistake. There was nothing better at the time than being dropped off at junior high in that car with the V8 burbling through dual exhausts. There are many cool cars in LA, but that one always drew a glance everywhere it went. It was the ultimate sleeper. Sadly, it's virtually impossible to find a lump today in the condition that car was in.
06-22-2004, 06:09 PM
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the way I got mine to pass was I had a universal cat installed by a muffler shop, saved a lot over a new one,
found a smog place that would run it without connecting to the state computer and fiddled with it till it came within range. then passed smog.
Your mechanic probably knows a smog place that he deals with on a regular basis that will let him do that for you.
found a smog place that would run it without connecting to the state computer and fiddled with it till it came within range. then passed smog.
Your mechanic probably knows a smog place that he deals with on a regular basis that will let him do that for you.
06-22-2004, 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by Scootin159
Thus the reason I will never live in california
Thus the reason I will never live in california
06-22-2004, 08:40 PM
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The way I understand the California smog laws is this:
If you fail the emissions test, you will have to spend some money to try to correct the emission levels. But there is a limit as to how much you have to spend. You just spend up to the limit at a qualified test and repair station, and you are done. Even if you don't pass after the work.
That is, unless your emissions levels are so bad that you are labeled a gross polluter. Then your car can be banned from the public roads if not fixed.
Now if you fail the visual, meaning that something was modified/removed/replaced, there are no cost limits. Even if you pass the emissions test, you must spend whatever it takes to pass the visual. Or again be banned from the public roads.
While this is a royal pain sometimes, I am still all for clean air. Where will we be when all the oxygen is used up? Its just that second scenario, that gripes my butt. If you pass the emissions test, why should a visual make a difference? The intent of the legislation has been met and we have a clean running vehicle. Go figure.
If you fail the emissions test, you will have to spend some money to try to correct the emission levels. But there is a limit as to how much you have to spend. You just spend up to the limit at a qualified test and repair station, and you are done. Even if you don't pass after the work.
That is, unless your emissions levels are so bad that you are labeled a gross polluter. Then your car can be banned from the public roads if not fixed.
Now if you fail the visual, meaning that something was modified/removed/replaced, there are no cost limits. Even if you pass the emissions test, you must spend whatever it takes to pass the visual. Or again be banned from the public roads.
While this is a royal pain sometimes, I am still all for clean air. Where will we be when all the oxygen is used up? Its just that second scenario, that gripes my butt. If you pass the emissions test, why should a visual make a difference? The intent of the legislation has been met and we have a clean running vehicle. Go figure.
Last edited by Bill; 06-22-2004 at 09:20 PM.
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06-22-2004, 08:49 PM
#8
Race Director
Andrew, if you have stock chips, you can figgle with the FQS switch in the DME to increase fuel a tiny bit and retard the timing. This will increase HC slightly and decrease NOx. The switch and its settings are on my 951 RacerX website.
Bill, you ever get your car pass the smog *****???
Bill, you ever get your car pass the smog *****???
06-22-2004, 09:01 PM
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Danno,
I am close to taking it back for a re-test.
Boy have I done some gyrations. Guru stealth MAF kit. Having faux Bosch label made for MAF, with stock part # stamped on it ($220 for 4). Reworked airbox for 3" flow. Made custom 3" intake pipe to Guru stealth MAF kit (currently at powder coater, mat black to match intercool pipes). Hidden EFPR. High flow Cat with flanges on both ends for easy test pipe installation. Waiting for black Lindsey 3" & 3 1/2" intake connector hoses and K&N air filter for inside stock airbox.
Car passed emissions. All this because of failed visual. Gotta love California.
Should be done by this weekend. I will post with pics when and if I pass. My one concern is that the smog ***** read the list.
I am close to taking it back for a re-test.
Boy have I done some gyrations. Guru stealth MAF kit. Having faux Bosch label made for MAF, with stock part # stamped on it ($220 for 4). Reworked airbox for 3" flow. Made custom 3" intake pipe to Guru stealth MAF kit (currently at powder coater, mat black to match intercool pipes). Hidden EFPR. High flow Cat with flanges on both ends for easy test pipe installation. Waiting for black Lindsey 3" & 3 1/2" intake connector hoses and K&N air filter for inside stock airbox.
Car passed emissions. All this because of failed visual. Gotta love California.
Should be done by this weekend. I will post with pics when and if I pass. My one concern is that the smog ***** read the list.
Last edited by Bill; 06-22-2004 at 09:21 PM.
06-22-2004, 11:44 PM
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What's all the complaining about smog laws anyway? The only part I find ridiculous is the notion that older cars should be held to a higher standard now than when new - particularly since the CARB typically doesn't let you modify any of the emissions-related components (even if they're BETTER - go figure). The only difference between then and now is the gasoline formulation, and the fact that you have old (in most cases) emissions parts. So that is kind of stupid.
That said, why fight it? Cleaner air is a good thing, and there's no reason that a car can't be made to meet the standards. I can't say I have a heck of a lot of sympathy for some cheap-*** that wants to pollute the environment for the rest of us just because they feel like it. I know I'll probably be flamed for daring to have a dissenting "liberal" opinion, but I don't care. I like my Porsche, but given a choice between it and breathable air I think I'd go with the latter. All you people out there that claim to "want the best for our children" should consider what kind of planet is being left for them and start practicing what you're preaching by putting their health and that of the rest of us before your own selfish whims.
This is not directed at anyone specifically, but a generalized statement. You know who you are.
That said, why fight it? Cleaner air is a good thing, and there's no reason that a car can't be made to meet the standards. I can't say I have a heck of a lot of sympathy for some cheap-*** that wants to pollute the environment for the rest of us just because they feel like it. I know I'll probably be flamed for daring to have a dissenting "liberal" opinion, but I don't care. I like my Porsche, but given a choice between it and breathable air I think I'd go with the latter. All you people out there that claim to "want the best for our children" should consider what kind of planet is being left for them and start practicing what you're preaching by putting their health and that of the rest of us before your own selfish whims.
This is not directed at anyone specifically, but a generalized statement. You know who you are.
06-23-2004, 01:05 AM
#11
Drifting
Originally posted by SoCal Driver
As I understand it NY is a close second to Cali on the smog laws. But as it's in the seventies with low humidity today. I think I will stay a bit longer.
As I understand it NY is a close second to Cali on the smog laws. But as it's in the seventies with low humidity today. I think I will stay a bit longer.
06-23-2004, 02:19 AM
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yeah i just moved from NY to CA, and the car passed NY smog with no problems right up until i moved here!
i'm wondering, the car is running slightly hotter these days, and the fans are cutting in more often in stop/go. could hotter running (but never going up to the top white line, overheating or anything) indicate that the combustion chambers are somehow too hot and making too much NOx?
the new cat cut the HC and CO way down.
got a few vacuum lines to check, too.
i'm wondering, the car is running slightly hotter these days, and the fans are cutting in more often in stop/go. could hotter running (but never going up to the top white line, overheating or anything) indicate that the combustion chambers are somehow too hot and making too much NOx?
the new cat cut the HC and CO way down.
got a few vacuum lines to check, too.
06-23-2004, 03:05 PM
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Higher NOx is a sign of efficiency. That is the HC's (fuel) are being mostly consumed. This does require higher temps.
There is "clean air" and then there is CARB's "clean air". The first is practical and based on sound known scientific studies, the second is conjecture based upon emotions and political correctness.
Take Cali's summer gasoline blend. This does nothing for 95% of the cars. The target 5% are the older carborated cars. When the total of it's effects, reduced efficiencies in the newer 95% and marginal efficiencies in the 5% are taken as a whole there is a net loss of emission efficiencies. This is ignoring the plus 50 cents per gallon impact to the economy. Bat at least ADM is getting rich.
As to modified engines I.E. MAS verses AFS: Take it to a mediator. When you can show that there is no difference and in fact an improvement they have no argument. Been there done that.
Back to the higher NOx. The EPA is forcing many fossil fuel electrical generating plants to run at less efficency to reduce the NOx emissions. So that ton of coal doesn't go as far as it used to. This translates into higher electrical costs. But hey! What price PC!
There is "clean air" and then there is CARB's "clean air". The first is practical and based on sound known scientific studies, the second is conjecture based upon emotions and political correctness.
Take Cali's summer gasoline blend. This does nothing for 95% of the cars. The target 5% are the older carborated cars. When the total of it's effects, reduced efficiencies in the newer 95% and marginal efficiencies in the 5% are taken as a whole there is a net loss of emission efficiencies. This is ignoring the plus 50 cents per gallon impact to the economy. Bat at least ADM is getting rich.
As to modified engines I.E. MAS verses AFS: Take it to a mediator. When you can show that there is no difference and in fact an improvement they have no argument. Been there done that.
Back to the higher NOx. The EPA is forcing many fossil fuel electrical generating plants to run at less efficency to reduce the NOx emissions. So that ton of coal doesn't go as far as it used to. This translates into higher electrical costs. But hey! What price PC!
06-23-2004, 03:32 PM
#14
Race Car
Originally posted by Scootin159
Can't complain about the weather in S.Cal., but I have never had my car emission tested here in NY. There is a visual inspection, but that typically consists of nothing more than ensuring there is a cat under there if the car is newer than 1976(?).
Can't complain about the weather in S.Cal., but I have never had my car emission tested here in NY. There is a visual inspection, but that typically consists of nothing more than ensuring there is a cat under there if the car is newer than 1976(?).
We still get 93 octane too.
06-23-2004, 04:59 PM
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since putting the new cat in, the HC and CO have dropped to well within limits, but the NOx is still average 605, which although the last time they tested it the limit was 791, he says this is too high. is it that it can never even momentarily go above 791?
These are my results when I had my car smogged and passed.
Here's the results.
15 Mph: 1553 RPM
HC: Max 116 Measured 20
CO: Max .74 Measured .01
NO: Max 791 Measured 13
25 Mph: 2472 RPM
HC: Max 91 Measured 13
CO: Max .62 Measured .03
NO: Max 730 Measured 728
If you NO is at 605 it should pass. Question here is was the NO reading @ 15 MPH or 25 MPH. The cat I used was the High Flow cat from Lindsey.