Rear sway bar
05-24-2004, 10:38 PM
#16
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Got the 22mm rear bar on and took it out in the rain. Feels really solid on the highway. Then I took it through some hard right angle turns and got on the gas coming out, not something I would normally do on wet roads but I had to check it out, now it is easy to cut the back end loose, which is either a plus or minus depending on what like. Think I will play with the tire pressure, was running 36 rear and 30 front, maybe 30 rear and 34 front.
Hears a really good thred I found on VWVortex about rear bars
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=576182
This site is actually about remote control cars but is basically a suspension how-to for race cars.
http://home.tiscali.be/be067749/58/intro.htm
Hears a really good thred I found on VWVortex about rear bars
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=576182
This site is actually about remote control cars but is basically a suspension how-to for race cars.
http://home.tiscali.be/be067749/58/intro.htm
05-24-2004, 11:06 PM
#17
Race Car
StoogeMoe:
as Z has already mentioned, adding a rear sway bar will only increase your oversteer problems.
my suggestion is to replace your shocks and struts first before doing anything. my 944S handled horribly with worn out shocks and struts, M+S tires, and a poor alignment. it oversteered like crazy at the limit - in fact, my only autocross crash was because of horrible tires and shocks. if you replace everything including suspension bushings and a good alignment, then you can start adding things like a rear sway bar or larger front sway bar.
as Z has already mentioned, adding a rear sway bar will only increase your oversteer problems.
my suggestion is to replace your shocks and struts first before doing anything. my 944S handled horribly with worn out shocks and struts, M+S tires, and a poor alignment. it oversteered like crazy at the limit - in fact, my only autocross crash was because of horrible tires and shocks. if you replace everything including suspension bushings and a good alignment, then you can start adding things like a rear sway bar or larger front sway bar.
05-25-2004, 01:23 AM
#18
Three Wheelin'
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Calling Skip,
So let me ask. On my 87 NA with no rear bar and the stock front bar, what would you recommend as the optimum sized rear bar for a street driven NA?
This assumes stock springs, though I will soon toss the (very) worn out original struts/shocks and be calling you for a set of Koni Yellows.
I should note that on level pavement the car appears to be slightly lower in the rear than front and it squats on acceleration. Will just installing Yellows take care of that? What would the ride height adjustment upgrade that you guys sell accomplish?...asuming nothing (other than shocks & rear sway) is done to the rear?
So let me ask. On my 87 NA with no rear bar and the stock front bar, what would you recommend as the optimum sized rear bar for a street driven NA?
This assumes stock springs, though I will soon toss the (very) worn out original struts/shocks and be calling you for a set of Koni Yellows.
I should note that on level pavement the car appears to be slightly lower in the rear than front and it squats on acceleration. Will just installing Yellows take care of that? What would the ride height adjustment upgrade that you guys sell accomplish?...asuming nothing (other than shocks & rear sway) is done to the rear?
05-25-2004, 02:02 AM
#19
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50mm - that'll get rid of that squat... 
Ordinary 16mm bar will make a good difference - don't bother with the 14mm. If you ever plan on updating the front bar (21.5mm OE), go straight to 18 or 19mm adjustable - won't really hurt handling and keeps you from wasting time and money.
Also, consider these costs when adding a rear sway bar (approximate, based on our prices - YMMV):
OE complete mount kit (90) and OE drop links (65x2=130) = $220
OE camber kit only (65) and RE Delrin mounts (100) and KLA drop links (65) = $230
Arguably, some folks can find the mount kit parts used. I use this to illustrate the cost of upgrades vs OE replacements.
The new shocks, specifically Konis, will go a long way in reducing the squat you now have. One of the primary functions of any damper is to resist change, or deliberately control it.
The adjustable ride height kit will allows you to do several things. It allows you to choose a spring rate, and, to make easy and affordable changes on down the upgrade line. It also allows you to control the ride height to accomplish things like lowering the Cg and corner balancing the car. And, most importantly, it's cool!
Ordinary 16mm bar will make a good difference - don't bother with the 14mm. If you ever plan on updating the front bar (21.5mm OE), go straight to 18 or 19mm adjustable - won't really hurt handling and keeps you from wasting time and money.
Also, consider these costs when adding a rear sway bar (approximate, based on our prices - YMMV):
OE complete mount kit (90) and OE drop links (65x2=130) = $220
OE camber kit only (65) and RE Delrin mounts (100) and KLA drop links (65) = $230
Arguably, some folks can find the mount kit parts used. I use this to illustrate the cost of upgrades vs OE replacements.
The new shocks, specifically Konis, will go a long way in reducing the squat you now have. One of the primary functions of any damper is to resist change, or deliberately control it.
The adjustable ride height kit will allows you to do several things. It allows you to choose a spring rate, and, to make easy and affordable changes on down the upgrade line. It also allows you to control the ride height to accomplish things like lowering the Cg and corner balancing the car. And, most importantly, it's cool!
05-25-2004, 10:35 AM
#20
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This is on a road I drive everyday. What got me started on this is that my Honda Civic (daily workhorse) goes through that turn at the same speed with no drama. It is much lighter and ALWAYS understeers, so that may be the difference. In the 944 it feels like the rear end is rolling, lifting the inside tire, causing the oversteer. I was hoping a bar would help this out. It feels okay on flat turns.
05-25-2004, 11:12 AM
#21
Burning Brakes
Originally posted by Z-man
Talk with some guys who track their 944 n/a's. I believe they will say the same thing I claim. . .
However, no matter how you argue the issue, StoogeMoe's oversteering condition will only be more exaggerated with a rear swaybar. Stiffen the rear will always result in more oversteer.
-Z.
Talk with some guys who track their 944 n/a's. I believe they will say the same thing I claim. . .
However, no matter how you argue the issue, StoogeMoe's oversteering condition will only be more exaggerated with a rear swaybar. Stiffen the rear will always result in more oversteer.
-Z.
05-25-2004, 11:16 AM
#22
Race Director
Originally posted by Ken
I've always disagreed with you regarding the 'inherint understeer' you say our cars have. That's why I upgraded to the 30mm front/22mm rear combo instead of just the rear bar as you always suggest. The difference was amazing! Someday, if/when the 83 is running again, I'll let you take a lap at an autocross and you can judge for yourself.
I've always disagreed with you regarding the 'inherint understeer' you say our cars have. That's why I upgraded to the 30mm front/22mm rear combo instead of just the rear bar as you always suggest. The difference was amazing! Someday, if/when the 83 is running again, I'll let you take a lap at an autocross and you can judge for yourself.
I still believe all 944's were made with a touch of understeer dialed into the suspension, for safety reasons. Perhaps the 951 and 944S2 have a little more understeer dialed in, due to their additional power, but there's push to be found across the model line.
Just IMHO,
-Z.