944Fest (aka Dan P)

In the new Excellence (6/04) "Sales Reports", Bruce Anderson talks about the sale of an 1988 944 Turbo. The car has nearly 100K on it and needed 3k in clutch and etc, otherwise a nice car. Nowhere does it mention the Turbo S option, so you'd think it is a non TS Turbo. The sale price states $7,900. Bruce then quotes 1989 Turbo values (10 to 15K) and says the sale was a great deal.
I think Bruce screwed up and confused a non TS 88 with an 89!! Do you think he'll print a correction? Doubtful..

In the same issue a 92 968 with 34,000 miles excellent except for stone chips at $17,500.. "this reader paid a little more than what we consider market value"
EDIT: OK, maybe he's right on the 968.. Kelley Blue Book puts that car at 10,800 in excellent cond.!! WOWZA!!

UDPride

My 951 was featured in the May 2000 edition of Excellence. Mind you this was almost FOUR years ago. Anyway I said my car was an 86 Turbo with 62K miles, Fuchs, rare graphite metallic, interior 9.5 out of 10, exterior 9 out of 10. I paid $9400 four years ago for it which I believe was about as good as it gets. He said I paid $600 too much.

I respect his knowledge of Porsches I really do. Sometimes I think Bruce doesnt step away from the math though and apply some common horse sense. Even today I wouldnt sell my car for $12,400, nevermind $9,400.

Ive said it before and I will say it again: market values are skewed artificially toward the buyer not the seller. This is by design.

If you have two Porsche Carrera GTs and both were purchased for $400,000, the average purchase price was $400,000. However, if one guy just happens to be stupid, gambled all his money away, or needs a heart transplant, and sells his GT for $50,000, the average selling price of a 1yr old Carrera GT is $50,000. Or is it? No way in hell it is. It is on paper, but paper doesn't buy cars. Money and critical thinking skills do.

A special problem with 944s is that most people who bought them were less affluent (reality) at the time they were bought new than say 911 or 928 owners. Originals owners tended to drive them more as daily drivers, pushed them harder or harder more often, and with less money sometimes neglected them. And being less affluent, more owners tend to be friggin dumbasses when it comes to balancing their checkbook, so they need money on a quick sale more than say the 928 S4 owner. So they end up having to sell for much less because they need the money yesterday. And that all funnels down to the owners who know how to manage their bottom dollar and keep their cars outperforming the market.

The market will always reflect sold cars, but it cannot account for cars not sold. And cars in the marketplace not for sale carry a value just like sold cars do. Harken back to the Carrera GT example. The unsold car has as much real world effect on market value as the one sold and accounted for in a used-car guide. The only problem is, you cannot easily track the cars that havent been resold in many years. That some people undersell their cars cannot be a burden carried by those who are just better salesmen of their own personal automotive property. That some people end up selling their 944 in the low rent section of town rather than on the high end where theres a greater likelihood for a buyer who is prepared to pay more should not be a burden carried by those who know how to count the beans.

I read all the time on here about what cars are worth or what people can get for them. I pay little attention because a) I dont need to sell my car, and b) even if I wanted to sell it, I could wait 3yrs before I found the guy who wanted to pay what I wanted to sell for it. I realize thats a luxury not all owners have, but when you are in a position of not needing to sell the car to maintain your livelihood, your options are about 10 fold better than if you need money pronto.

An 89 Porsche 911 has been in the classifieds of the Dayton Daily News for almost a year now. Asking price is $28,000. I wouldn't pay it. But sooner or later someone will and patience is a virtue no market value appraisal will ever account for.

Tom R.

A few problems with your logic.

1) There is no high rent section of town for used 944s

2) I can wait 20 years to sell my Firebird or any of my other toys. I don't need the money. I do need the space. I have room for one more toy, after that something has to go if I want to expand. If a sweet deal on another toy came along, i bet your demands would drop pronto.

3) Just as there are abberations with the car going for less then it is worth, there are abberations with cars going for more then they are worth. Nobody would pay what I got for my S2, but I would not have sold it for that little.

alpenweissisnice

As always, a car is worth what someone is willing to pay...

I paid WAY too much for my 88 non-S turbo...and I knew it when I did it. It was the right color interior, with sports seats, right mileage (48K at the time, all original car that I was looking for...I wanted the car, and I paid top dollar.

UDPride makes a number of good points. A lot of people that could afford to own 944/951's back in the day (particularly the second owners) couldn't necessarily afford to service them. I forsee the same issue coming with the 986...TomR's 3 rd comment and UD Pride (to me) are saying basically the same thing - that (as I said) a car is worth what someone is willing to write the check for, and what amount on that check someone (the seller) is willing to accept...

Dave

Take exc911ence numbers with a big grain of salt, their sample rate is tiny and pulld mostly from a very small geographical area. The more subjectively I look at that magazine, the more over-rated it becomes.

Bruce '89 s2

Some very sage comments coming out here.
My Merc 280CE has (sort of) been for sale for 3 years.
I don't need the money - the wife wont drive the S2 'cause she doesn't like a clutch pedal and prefers the autobox Merc.
Knowing the time & money I've spent on the Merc I won't sell it at the silly prices clapped out ones are fetching and it doesn't really owe me anything anyway. So a good car isn't in the market - does that depress the market price of 280CE Merc's??? No. or perhaps yes 'cause when I DO get my price it'll raise the average.

craig001

You have to take several things into consideration. First Kelly BB and Edmonds tend to be on the low side of things. NADA tends to be on the high side. For example; my S2 Cab in good shape: KBB & Edmonds are at $7100, NADA was about $10k. The dealer black book says $7995. So if I trade my car in, then that is what it is worth. Of course the actual trade in price may go up some after I get there and we horse trade. eBay is another price point, while it's an artifical marketplace people are still buying and selling cars there. I've seen S2 cabs go for $7500 and then one recently went for close to $15k. So who's right. Currently there is a 1989 951 on there at ~$12500. A recent post from someone that went to the dealer said that reserve was close to $27,000. Now lets be real, sure the car sold for $50k or so... in 1989. So now do you think that someone will pay $27k for a 25 year old car. The mileage is immaterial since you would have to have a 30k service done (unless you make it part of the deal) because all the parts are 25 years old. Would you trust a 25 year old timing belt or radiator hose? These cars are similar to boats, they are a luxury item, not a necessity and they are money pits as well. I probably have over $2k of parts in my garage I never got around to putting on. How much is sitting in your garage?

Bruce Anderson and Excellence are good resources, but not the Grand Wazoo. They offer a data point for reference. Cars sell for different prices throughout the country. They check a number of sources and also take reader's purchases and sales into consideration. So what are you going to do? You either put your car up and take what the market offers; you buy a car for what you hope is a fair price and you are willing to pay; or you just keep it and have fun. And after all the trouble I've had trying to sell my cab, I will say that it's a buyers market. I don't have a line of folks lined up waving wads of paper with pictures of dead american presidents in my face. I've had one call over the weekend and he no showed.

Bottom line is that the economy is weak, gas prices are up, and right now you take what you can get. I offered my car for $11k in the paper and told the guy to bring $10500 in cash or Capital One draft check and the car was his. I was going to throw in the Wet Okele Seat covers because they are the wrong color for the 911 I am looking at.

But Dan, where in Cleveburg do you live? I lived up there for 14 years. Mainly Lakewood and Fairview Park. Go Browns!

tifosiman

All very good points craig..................(except it is a 15 year old car, not a 25 year old car . 2004-1989=15)

944Fest (aka Dan P)

Tifo.. that new avatar is hilarious!

Craig.. I grew up in North Ridgeville, now live in Avon. The Browns continue to remind me how those Cubbies fans felt all those years. The "North Coast" takes a lot of jabs, some deserved, but it is home to us and we like it a lot... well, except maybe that "winter" part!!!

itsme-itsme

In March 2004, I sold my early 85 944NA AUTOMATIC for $4800. I started in November at $5300, and dropped the price $100 per month. I didn't get a call at $5200, $5100, or $5000. At $4900 I started getting calls with "offers". I disclosed my "$100 a month" plan and held firm. When it hit $4800, a $4900 looker came and got it. I had two appointments to show it the same day he picked it up.
It was worth it to him, and maybe the other two lookers. Bruce Anderson is only one averaged opinion.

It was a nice car though!!

GOBOGIE

I don't hold much weight to published market values. You get what you pay for and there is always someone out there willing to pay what your car is actually worth, the troubleis finding him!!!

M758

Some cars are "avergage" what this means is that they fit into the typical car mode. Typical condition, miles, etc.

Those cars are easier to cover since there are more of them. It is the special ones that are harder to judge. What a car is worth is dependant on buyer and seller. I think the market up date are general trends that focus on "average" cars. Two cars may look the same, but one may be work 25-50% more depending on the seller. Sometimes the seller can find buyer's better in some cases a seller can instill more/less confidence in car.

Don't get too caught up in this stuff.
Bottomline is that you AWALYS buy the car for TOO MUCH and sell for TOO LITTLE.

KLR

If you think that Bruce's market values are puzzling for our cars, check out his 911 valuations. His numbers for an early S, E, or even T these days appear to be pretty far from reality. I appreciate that he uses a specific methodology and that this data is not available elsewhere, but the self reported values, self reported condition, and self-selection into the sample set clearly do some funny things to the numbers. If you assume that the people who write in are those that feel that they got a good deal and then consider that a disinterested seller will probably let a car go for $1-2K less than they could get if they held out and/or marketed the car better, it's not surprising that the values on the low $$ porsches appear to be rock bottom.

M758

KLR ... Good point...

I looks like I have my 98 Cherokee sold. It got a decient price for it, but I am not sure how good. I am hesitant to post is price because while I think its ok now I really don't want to know I got hosed and should have asked for more. Too late. So why send it into a guy like anderson just to tell me I got hosed. Why also if bought would I send it in just to tell me I paid too much. I be more inclined if I though I got a smoking deal to publicize it. That impacts apparent market values.

craig001

Hey Dan,

I know the area. Do you ever get to an Italian joint called Fratello's? If the place is still there and still owned by the same people, then I know them. You should see, it used to be good.

I'm still a big Tribe fan, even if they are rebuilding... AGAIN! It's tough to wear my colors here in redbird land though.