Zero10

Alright, it has finally eaten away at me long enough. I am doing my belts next week (I hope).
Now, I have a few problems.
I don't know what to buy.
I look around, and everybody has a different kit, only half of them with part numbers I can understand.
And, although I have the PET, I can't seem to find any of the front end of the engine in there, so I can't check which parts I need!
So, I looked through Pelican Parts, and I came up with a huge list of what I need, but I don't know what I am missing.
I plan on doing a full front reseal, replacing all rollers, the water pump (rebuilt pump if possible), the oil cooler seals, and the thermostat.
Plus a few other little odds and ends that I already have the part numbers for.
I have spent about 3 hours staring at parts lists, and I think I am on the verge of insanity.
Some places sell 8 piece front seal kits, some 9, and some 14.
Some sell water pumps with all the bolts and washers, others don't.

Who has done this job recently, who did you buy from, and what parts did you get/also need?

My main confusion also lies in the pump itself.
Pelican Parts has an explanation of upgrading the 86 pump to have a belt guard. Which I would like to do.
Now, I have no idea if I have the belt guard on mine already.
But, Pelican says all you need is a couple parts, but they never mention if you need to buy the 86 or the 87 pump!
Can I simply install the 87 water pump on my car so I have the belt guard, or would it be different (perhaps different belts on the 87 engine)??

I have access to a tensioning tool, so we can rule that out right away =)

Somebody please help a crazy guy!

Charlie

Call Jason or Chuck at Paragon 800 200 9366

cruise98

Well, here is a list I have compiled over the years. There are some supercessions on the list, but it is 99% complete.

944 8 VALVE FRONT ENGINE SEALS, BELTS & WATER PUMP PARTS LIST

From engine # 43F 06995 (1985) thru 1986 8 valve engines

Camshaft

1 each O-ring 999.701.602.40
1 each Woodruff key (optional) 900.117.045.00
1 each O-ring (onion skin) 944.105.321.00
1 each Spacer 928.105.139.04
1 each Seal 999.113.349.40
1 each Bolt (optional) 999.510.022.08
1 each Toothed roller 944.105.027.04
1 each Stud 944.102.216.01
1 each Nut 944.102.243.00
1 each Smooth roller (for updated pump) 944.105.241.03
1 each Rubber seal 928.105.184.00
1 each Belt 944.105.157.04

Crankshaft

1 each Seal 999.113.331.50
1 each Sleeve (oil pump drive) 944.107.161.02
1 each O-ring 999.707.283.40
1 each Woodruff key (optional) 900.117.036.00

Balance shafts

1 each Seal (upper, cw rotation) 999.113.282.40
1 each Seal (lower, ccw rotation) 999.113.281.40
2 each Spacer 928.105.139.02
2 each O-ring (same as cam) 944.105.321.00
2 each O-ring 999.701.652.40
2 each Woodruff key (optional) N 012.708.2
1 each Tensioner roller 944.102.025.07
1 each Smooth roller 944.102.277.06
1 each Belt 944.102.219.02

Water pump

1 each Water Pump 951.106.021.10
1 each Block off plate 944.106.313.00
1 each O-ring 999.707.283.40
2 each Bolt 6 x 20mm N .014.704.1
2 each Washer N .011.524.7
1 each Thermostat 944.106.019.00
1 each Support Washer 900.234.160.00
1 each T-stat O-ring 944.106.929.08
1 each Guard rail (for updated pump) 944.105.210.01
2 each Lock nuts (for guard rail) 999.084.092.02


Now for the disclaimer. "Use at your own risk". You and anyone else are welcome to copy and use it at your own peril. It does not include mounting hardware for the pump, or locknuts for the rollers.

Become a rennlist member and borrow the tension tool from the tool club. You must properly tension the belt or you run the risk of involuntarily joining the "Bent Valve Club"!

Zero10

Well I doubt it would be worthwhile shipping the tool to canada, when I know a guy in the city who has it, and said I could borrow it =) I have always checked them with the twist method. We shall see how accurate that is when I borrow the tool.
But thanks anyways. I am so broke I can't even dream about paying for rennlist, I can barely pay my insurance and put gas in my baby.

I have a question about the sleeve for the oil pump. I can't recall now whether I was told that the sleeve itself wears, and so must be replaced, or whether it is something around the sleeve that wears, that nobody remembers to replace and it will always leak afterwards...

I think I finally understand about the water pump. So, I require the new style water pump, AND the guard rail and lock nuts to attach it to the updated pump.
I wonder why some places offer both pumps?.. Perhaps for people who don't understand, like I did =)

Wow, that is quite the list. I didn't realize I needed so many things.
I checked out paragon's web site, and they seem cheaper on MOST things, but for some reason their belts are more expensive. I also cannot find a couple other things I require. I will try calling them after I am out of the university for the day. That way I have a little while. I hope their 800 number works in Canada.

Are there any other places people reccomend for buying this stuff from?

BTW, about the bent valve club, my belts have 100,000+kms on them and 8+ years. I think I am going to be a newly inducted member before my parts get to me. However I have no other choice for daily transportation!
So, I cross my fingers every time I start er up.

Alright, time to hammer some more questions.
Why all the seals for the balance shafts?..
I don't understand where 1 seal and 2 o-rings go on each one (maybe I will understand when I pull it apart?)
Under camshaft, you list a roller for the water pump. But I don't know what size it is. Is it the 42.5mm (or whatever size that is), or the 34mm? The 42.5 is for the updated pump I believe.
I will check all the parts that were listed here against my list that I have created, see what I forgot, or perhaps added twice.
Hopefully I can get this sorted out and ordered today, perhaps have it rushed up to me. I would like to get going on it this weekend, but I have the entire next week off, so I suppose I can wait.

Thanks for all the help, and I think I am back from the edge of insanity =)

cruise98

The oil pump sleeve gets a groove worn in it over time and it will ruin a new seal.

The balance shafts each have three seals. You remove the front of the balance shaft housing, (3 bolts on the upper, and 4 on the lower) and the rubber o-ring goes on the back of the front housings, then one mylar flat seal (onion skin) that goes on the end of the shaft, and then the actual seal. Same issue with the spacers as the oil pump sleeve. They get grooved over time.

The smooth roller for the cam belt is the updated part #. Do not mess around with the old style pump. If someone sends you an early rebuilt unit, send it back, and get the updated variety.

Paragon is my favorite suppler. I have used various dealers , Zims and 944online as well. Vertex is fine, but I recoil at the credit card surcharge fine print. I want the real price, and 99% will be ordering by phone and using a credit card anyway. Cash discount would be more palatable to me. Anyway, they have all made mistakes with an order, but as the saying goes

"To err is human, to make it right iS customer service".

Good luck with the repairs on a tight budget. If the seals are not leaking, just do the belts and pump. Maybe you will get another semester or two out of them anyway. It is so much work, many of us just recommend doing the whole thing so we don't have to fool with them again for many miles.

Do not wait to place your order. Something always happens.

Techno Duck

Like Keith said, good luck with the job. Its not overly difficult especially with the power of Rennlist at your aid. It took me; with the help of my fathers wrench supervising about 4 hours of work. It really took about a day and a half, but most of that was travelling back and fourth between the Porsche dealer about 30 minutes away to get the parts i was missing. The waterpump was the biggest issue. I ended up having the older style pump on my 924S and we upgraded to the newer style. Its not hard to do at all, you will however need to modify the lower rear timing belt cover. There is a service bullentin that shows the areas of the cover that need to be cut out to allow the new pump to fit. You should be able to get a copy from any dealer. Nothing a recipricating saw (or even dremel) cant handle. A word of advice though, make an outline in chalk, or youll cut will look like a staircase the first time around =P.

Dont be surpised to find yourself saying 'Who the hell designed this thing?" a few times. From a mechanic that knows domestic cars inside and out, he was amazed at the way the engine on these cars is designed.

austin944

I've put 40k miles on 2 original-style waterpumps without any problems. I changed them out when I did the timing belt, since I was already in there. Zims Autotechnik claims their rebuilt pumps have an upgraded seal which lasts longer than the original. I thought about going with the upgraded pump but I didn't want the job to be more hassle than it already was. Belt guards, timing belt cover mods, new nuts/bolts, bah!

I got the rebuilt waterpump, thermostat+O-ring, and new waterpump bolts from Zims.

Zero10

Hmm, Zims sounds very tempting. But so does paragon.
I am going to pull the belt covers and take a look, see what is leaking, but that will delay my order another day. Another day for something to happen.
I have a serious coolant leak somewhere, I will check out the water pump while the cover is off.
I agree on the just do the belts idea. It's not that much work to just change the belts, and if something fails, I can always pull it back apart.
I don't know about the water pump. I suppose if it's leaking, I will change it, but otherwise, cover or not, I think it will stay.

Thanks for all the help.

Although, I think I will install a new thermostat while I am in there. Mine seems to work a little weird.

Charlie

Water pumps can fail in a couple of ways.
I had an 86 944 where the pump started leaking water out the front and I had to replace it, not to big of deal. On my 88 model the water pump bearing locked up therefore the timing belt could not turn the pump. The car overheated and blew the head gasket. I was lucky that it did not jump timing or break the timing belt and require valves, pistons, etc.

Zero10

Yes, lucky indeed usually that burns up the belt!
Hey cruise98, you said your list was 99% complete. Here is the other 1%
1 each water pump gasket 951.106.132.04
I hope I have the P/N right, it could be 944.xxx...
Alrighty, I think I am just going to do belts, balance, cam, power steering and alt/ac
as well as cap/rotor
and I am going to pull the intake manifold and replace the whole damn rats nest in there. Find that stupid vacuum leak.
and finally, pull the exhaust headers, and weld my cracked manifold, and replace the nuts with copper ones.

So, that should be a full days work the way I see it, but I have 9 days budgeted. LOL.

Sorry to trouble everybody with all these parts requests. But I finally realized that since the engine will be getting replaced within 1 - 1 1/2 years, I am only going to replace what is leaking.

cruise98

Thanks. The list grows ever longer! Wait until I add locking nuts and washers.

Zero10

Lol that is true, but there are a couple washers on there. I found some pics of the hardware kits, if you included every nut bolt and washer, it would be long indeed.

On a side note, I found 12mm copper exhaust nuts at paragon. They come heavily reccomended, so I think I will order from them, pay the extra few bucks for the belts and such. It's not worth paying brokerage fees twice to save $10 on the belts, and since I am pulling the exhaust headers, I would really like to install the copper nuts.

Zero10

Wow, alrighty...
Well, I climbed under the car to check everything out, and also pulled the top belt cover to take a peek inside.
Found my coolant leak. Tightened up a couple hose clamps that I thought were already too tight.... Looks like my lower rad hose itself may be leaky.
Good news, no oil seals leaking behind the belt covers, and the water pump is nice and dry.
Got a good chance to check out the housing, no leaks anywhere on the pump, big relief there.
However, I noticed that I do not have the belt guard on the pump. I must admit this makes me a little nervous, but at the same time, it has driven over 240,000km and from the records I have, never snapped a belt.

Anyhoo, that all said, I found some leaks =(
I know the PS pump leaked already, and was already planning to rebuild it, but I had no idea it leaked THAT BAD!! Jeez, it is just soaked, so much fluid on it, that it is clean all over!

Next, found my oil leak. At first I thought it was the OPRV or the oil pressure sensor, both of which are wet. Then after further inspection, it looks like the housing that the oil filter mounts to leaks as well. But nothing seemed to leak enough to make up for the oil spots.
Then I found it.
The lower balance shaft housing.
So, it's stupid question time. If I have the power steering pump and bracket out of the way, how much work is it to change the balance shaft seals with the engine in the car? Is it even possible with the crossmember and steering rack in the way?
I am trying to decide if it is worth doing.

Just to make sure it is my problem. What I see leaking is immediately underneath the housing the oil filter attaches to, just back of the power steering pump, and seems to be a roundish elongated cover, with bolts up the long sides. Appears to run most of the length of my engine.
Does that sound like the lower balance shaft housing?

Alright, so I think I have decided on what I am replacing.
Balance Belt
Timing Belt
Distributor Cap & Rotor
2 exhaust manifold gaskets (welding the 1-4 header)
1 gasket (manifold - cat)
4 intake manifold gaskets (replacing all the vacuum lines)
Thermostat & O-ring
Copper crush washers for the power steering lines at the pump
copper exhaust manifold nuts
whatever nuts and bolts I break removing the 1-4 header

Should I replace the studs for the exhaust manifolds while I am in there?
Do I need to remove them to pull the 1-4 header?

Sorry for so many questions, I was not able to call and order my parts this morning, but it gave me the opportunity to double check everything with you guys before I do tomorrow.

TIA for any help/suggestions.

Zero10

Bummmmmmp...
hasn't anybody changed their balance shaft cover gaskets?

Charlie

There are no gaskets to change on the balance shafts. You have seals, o-rings. You might call the paper thin front seal a gasket?? The front O-ring and seal are real easy to change.