MXM

Uh. That took some time to read whole thread.

I got a newbee question about heel&toe.
I've watched Claytons videos and it looks like you take foot off the clutch only when gears are engaged? And there are 3 parts to be syncronised, engine, transaxle(in case of our Porsches) and gearbox(wheels). So you basicly syncronise engine and gearbox, leaving part from clutch to gearbox for syncros? You would had to double-clutch to make it all manually. But that probably would take too much time. So do you actually ever need to use double-clutch (i.e. reving on neutral while clutch pedal up) with heal&toe while racing? In my 944 downshifting to 2nd is hard. I actually double-clutch on roads sometimes just not to stress syncros. Must be even harder when racing...

P.S. Anyone seen the movie FastAndFurious? When Vin Diesel makes his comment about guy's driving: "granny shifting, not double-clutching like you should", does it make any sense in that little drag race? Or am I missing something

Brian P

Let's make it clear. I used to brake at 100% and the issue was that I was focusing too much on braking. The problem was that I was still on the brakes too much as I entered the turn (the car was not well balanced) and this forced me to go slower than I otherwise could.

I have since stopped trying maximum braking, and I'm now focused on entering the turn well balanced and I'm paying a LOT more attention to my speed throughout the turn (no, not looking at the speedometer, just using the good, old, butt-meter). I have since become MUCH, MUCH faster.

When I'm convinced I'm taking the turns as fast as possible, then I'll go back and work on the braking technique again.

Now, some of you are already driving the corners at the limit, and maybe the only time you can make up is in the braking zone. For me, I know that's not the case.

P944forScott

Just one note for Kevin,
If your a Andretti fan the IMAX "Speedway" film is a MUST see!

Funny thing I was going to start a tread about hand position on the wheel, thanks for answering the question anyway!

Rich Sandor

another rennlister just showed me his DVD copy of "Speedway"

GREAT film!!!

two thumbs up,

FSAEracer03

Z-Man.... "word" good advice!

jonnybgood

Truckers have been doing this for years. When everything is rev matched as you put it the lever will just drop into gear. I've done it a few times in my 944S but not often and I just adjust the engine speed until I feel less resistance on the lever. It is not something I do when driving fast nor do I do it often. The more you know a car or truck the easier it gets.

Now whether or not it is an approved racing technique I have no idea!

Glad you are here Kevin.

FSAEracer03

....Have they really?? One word there... wow. To this day, as much as I get bored every once in a while and stop using the clutch to upshift, I just can't seem to get comfortable with the idea of downshifting without it.... well, when I go home for the summer, I'm dropping my S-10's tranny and putting my new borg-warner in there, I might as well start the learning process!

Hey Johnny, I'm glad to be here, and I'm very glad to have a good debate with fellow members... opposing views notwishstanding, it's a good time! And if you want Carroll Smith's view on it, I would be more than happy to scan it and post it. IIRC, he said something to the effect of "I think all driver's should learn the technique... if nothing else to improve driving skill."

gnosis

You're right. People get heel-toe technique and double de-clutching (also called double clutching) confused. The former is simply giving the engine a rev to make sure it's spinning at the same speed as the back wheels when you release the clutch. The latter is, as you say, letting the clutch out while the gearbox is in neutral to let the driving wheels give the gearbox internals a spin up to speed too. This technique is way too slow to use in racing, and is mostly used in trucks where there are no synchros and things are moving somewhat slower anyway. And with the advent of synchromesh on road gearboxes, it's almost pointless to use it on a modern road car. However if your synchros are bad, or if you don't have one on first gear for example, or you're experiencing gearbox problems during a race and need to be extra gentle on it, then double de-clutching can get you to the end of a race.

I've never had to use double de-clutching on the race track, but I did need to use it to get my potential future father inlaw's VW Combi into first gear consistently, thus earning his respect. Apparently I was the only person outside of his family who could tame the VW, and this was apparently some sort of worthiness test and granted me the right to screw his daughter with his blessing. So double de-clutching has its uses!

As for shifting a road box without using the clutch, it is possible, using double de-clutching, but why bother? That's what synchros and clutches are for. If you want to know what damage it can cause, just ask Kevin. I'm sure he can give you a demonstration.

As for Vin Diesel's comments, they rate alongside using "Nos" as a name for nitrous oxide injection when it's actually a brand name i.e. silly and wrong.

Clayton

FSAEracer03

Well thanks for giving everyone a demonstration of a what an "uncalled for post" is Clayton... it's bull**** like this that makes me not care to look at some threads sometimes! Here's what Carroll Smith has to say on the subject... don't feel like a TOTAL *** after reading it...

FSAEracer03

aaaand the next page of his book, "Drive to Win"... (see my highleghted and underlined sections)

gnosis

Kevin,

Look at one of my earlier posts where I talk about driving a Super Tourer and shifting gears without the clutch. I know it's possible because I have done it. But it's UTTERLY RIDICULOUS to suggest doing it in a road car, either on the road or on the track. Let me say that another way. Carroll Smith is right, but in the context of this thread (driving Porsches for fun), he is also IRRELEVANT!

But you seem to want to insist that a few pages in a book make you an expert, so I figure it's appropriate to direct people to you so you can show them how it's done. If you can't take that tiny amount of heat, I suggest you get out of the kitchen. You say you're enjoying the debate on this thread? Well I'm enjoying it too. But you really are a lone voice in the wind - the increasingly strong wind generated by many laps and years of driving experience the other posters here possess.

This thread is about dispelling driving misconceptions. It's not about ensuring they live on. I have Smith's book. And I don't give a damn what he says, because quite frankly most of it belongs on the race tracks of the '70s. It's only relevant to driving race cars that came from that era, and it has almost no application on the road. Why do I have this opinion about him? Because I've gone out and tried what he suggests. I've kept the stuff that works and discarded the stuff that doesn't.

But if you want to insist that you can read something somewhere and evangelise it as the Word of God and then expect everyone else with an opposing opinion to bite their tongues, well, it's not going to happen like that. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. But I think you should have some courage to go with your convictions. If you feel threatened because your stance is really only based on a few lines in a book, then if I were you I'd either give up some ground, or instead you can accept the burden that goes with having questionable opinions and smile while you're at it. Hell, at least I acknowledged your opinion by referring to you. I could have said the opposite, which is "Don't talk to Kevin, because he's barking mad and his advice will hand you a huge bill for gearbox repairs".

I have videos that show me practicing what I preach. You have someone else's book. I suggest you put the book down and go out and drive. When you've done it for a few years and get some results, come back and tell us from a position of authority what works and what doesn't. You might think my comment was uncalled for, but I'll bet there's a lot of people following this thread who agree with me, and also see my referral to you in the lighthearted way it was intended. If you're offended, I'm sorry about that. But you have to admit you've set yourself up to be knocked down due to this thread-long insistance that you're right because Carroll Smith and Mario Andretti say so despite worldwide popular opinion to the contrary.

But as you probably know already, arguing on the Internet is like the Special Olympics, so I won't be making reference to your opinions any more in this thread. I'll leave other readers to decide for themselves what is and what is not a driving misconception.

Clayton

odurandina

revving up an old thread in honor of the two car drafts. with the new surface, speeds are way, WAY up. so who's going ? i'm gonna by covered with soot down so close (i'm 6 rows back of turn 4).... anyway, hope Mark Martin finally wins.