gnosis

What a truly sickening thought! I expect that would almost always be fatal. If there wasn't any other reason to avoid this "taxi cab steering stance", that single comment alone should be enough to put people off it for life!

However it's been well proven that the 9 - 3 or 10 - 2 positions are the best to hold your hands (that is left hand at the 9 o'clock position and right hand at the 3 o'clock position, and corresponding positions for 10 and 2). Along with proper seating distance and upright stance, you have far greater ability to exert steering force on the wheel with your hands in a position like these. Make sure, as mentioned earlier, that while your hands are in this position, your elbows are slightly bent. This helps you apply force, and prevents you from breaking bones if you hit something.

It is true, however, that using the wrist at the top of the steering wheel is a good method to judge correct seating distance. Just don't leave it there when you turn the ignition key.

One area where there is considerable debate is where you should position your hands when cornering. Smaller corners don't require a change of position, but larger and/or slower corners often do. There are two camps. The "hold position" camp where you keep at least one hand on the same spot on the wheel no matter how far you have to turn it. If you must turn it more than about 3/4 turns you use the palm of your open hand rather than gripping the wheel and turn the wheel beneath it. The other camp is the "wheel shuffle" one, where you slide your hands around the wheel, holding it in succesive grasps.

I prefer the first method, since I believe it is far more likely that wheel shuffling will get you lost, and having the reassurance of knowing exactly where one particular spot on the wheel is at all times gives you one less thing to think about.

What do others think?

Clayton

mpw

Even better are people who like to grab the wheel with their hand turned so their palm is facing them. At least the air bag won't launch their hand at their face, rather it will lock thier hand against the wheel and shatter their elbow. Fun stuff...moral of the story, keep your hands on the sides of the wheel.

As far as hand position, I can't get used to shuffle steering, I try to keep my hands more or less at the same spot on the wheel. The link below is an in-car lap at VIR, where my hands (or at least one of them), is in plain view and hopefully I'm doing this correctly. Clayton or anyone else, if you have any tips, I'd welcome them. A few caveats about the clip. It was only my second time at VIR, so I was still learning the track; this is very evident at the end of the back straight (midway through the clip) where I attempt to turn in for the school line and then follow the race line...it works out well. Also, the white Talon was making about 400 WHP, I'm not that slow. And, the silver S4 is chipped, I'm running stock boost. One more caveat, last year was my first year on the track, so I'm far from an expert, I'm pretty much track dumb, so anything that I'm saying here is stuff I've picked up along the way, for better or worse.

Please don't stream it...11 MB AVI (This may only be viewable on a PC because of the stupid Codec I used)

jjguitarranch

This is a great thread. I've got my first DE event on 3.31 and another on 9.16. Both are at Lime Rock. In preparation I'm reading a great book called "Going Faster Mastering the Art of Race Driving". Many of the experienced posters will have read or at least heard about this book. The newer listers like myself interested in performance driving will find the book very helpful.

Z-man

Clayton: regarding hand position: I use both. For different applications. Let me explain:

For DE/Track: I start with my hands at 3 and 9, and as I turn, I don't shuffle. 99% of the corners on the tracks I run do not require more turning than what I am capable of by keeping my hands in their 'proper' position. The only two turns where I need to move my hand only slightly are: the left before the snake at VIR, and the last turn on Jefferson Circuit at Summit Point (going counter-clockwise, just before pit lane). Other than that, all other turns in the north east don't need any shuffling, IMHO.

However, for autocrossing, sometimes the only way you can turn a car enough is to shuffle the steering wheel in your hands. It's they quickest way that I've tried. And I've never had the problem of not knowing if the steering wheel is straight after the turn: you know that right away!

Justin: I strongly suggest you read the following series: Speed Secrets Inner Speed Secrets and Speed Secrets 2 by Ross Bentley. Excellent set of books on the dynamics of performance driving.

If your "Going faster" book is the Skip Barber book, that is also an excellent resource!

-Z-man.

PS: Justin: have a fun time at my favorite track! I'll be there on April 1-2 myself!

gnosis

I saw a copy of that Skip Barber book today - the updated edition. It looks quite comprehensive with excellent diagrams. There's even a chapter on weight transfer with examples showing corner weights and how they affect balance. There's a good section on trail braking and a mention of left foot braking with the all important "traction circle" diagram (which I'm sure we'll get to in this thread soon enough).

I did a quick check in the index, but there's no heading for "engine braking". You can draw your own conclusions from that.

I had to say that, but please, no engine braking replies!

Clayton

iloveporsches

Someone want to explain this left-foot braking thing to me? I see how to do it in something like a go-kart or FSAE car where the clutch is hand-actuated, or in a car with an automatic, but how do you do it in a car with a manual? If you're braking with the left foot, how do you downshift as you approach the turn?

Danno

Senna was a master of this left-foot braking thing....

iloveporsches

But did those F1 cars have clutches? Aren't current ones sequential paddle shifts?

gnosis

Left foot braking is used when you don't need to change down any gears, or if your car can handle downshifts without using the clutch (racing gearboxes with dog gears and tiny flywheels allow this).

Simply, you use your left foot on the brake and your right foot on the accelerator, exactly as in a kart. This allows you to trail brake right up to the apex, balancing the car between braking and acceleration. Generally, you back off the accelerator, but not completely. It's even possible to do it without backing off the acclerator at all, especially in fast sweeping corners.

I can attest that this is a very fast way into a corner. I've had other drivers in the same type of car come up to me after a race and say "How the hell are you catching me into turn 4?" It's because I can more effectively use the grip surplus the tyres have as I slow the car under brakes and turn at the same time. Using brakes and accelerator at the same time gives you very direct control over weight transfer, minimises the time lag between braking and accelerating, and allows you to thread a line around the outside of a traction circle, rather than cutting across it diagonally, as most people do when they brake first in a straight line, then transition back to throttle as they turn in for the apex.

The comment about Senna is true. If you've ever seen a traction circle from one of the better F1 drivers who use left foot braking, you'll see how they are using almost 100% of the tyre's grip almost all the time. Current F1 semi and fully automatic gearboxes make them even more kart-like, so they are mad if they don't use this skill. Especially since most of them grew up racing karts.

Note: For those who've never seen a traction circle diagram, imagine a plot of lateral and longitudinal g-forces. A spot at the top of the graph represents maximum braking, one at the bottom represents maximum accelerations, one at the extreme left and right represents maximum cornering forces. Now imagine a perfect circle that traces around the edge of the diagram. The total of the lateral and longitudinal forces add up to the maximum grip of the tyre. So as you brake or accelerate less, you have more of the tyre's grip available to support turning, and vice versa.

Skip Barber's book has some good examples of traction circles. And here's some info with diagrams (although I haven't read it, just looked at the pics to see if they're worth posting here as examples): http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/07-Circle.html

Clayton

iloveporsches

Ah, I see. So it's not applicable 100% of the time. That's what I do when racing on the PC with the button-shifters, so I guess I'm familar with the technique.

gnosis

I'd use it in every corner if I could, but gear shifting gets in the way.

Clayton

Rich Sandor

Clutchless paddle shifting in our cars would be so cool.

iloveporsches

Hahaha I bet a system like that could buy you a few 951's!

Rich Sandor

That's not to say it can't be done.

Hey if I won the lottery...

jonnybgood

Kevin, Learning from other guys at a shop is very different than doing it on the track. It is not whether you own a Porsche, the question is have you driven a car on a race track during a race for several races like these other guys. Because these other guys have done it they qualify to talk about what works and what does not work. When you say you have autocrossed, does that mean that you adjusted the sway bars, tire pressures, spring settings, and all that or did you get in somebody elses car and drive? There is a big difference.

What comes through in the other posts by the guys who have campaigned cars is that they know because they have done it. That is much different than your reading books and speculating about what some of the top drivers do when they race. I read the statement from that book in your post. It qualified that Andretti used engine braking from a "very high speed to a very low speed". That qualifies it for a specific purpose like slowing from doing 220 down the Muslanne straight at Le Mans. Reading that I do not think they meant to say he does engine braking at each and every turn.

So two days later I say again, give it up. You are wasting bandwidth! It appears you are taking engineering classes. In all seriousness I suggest you become an attorney. You tenaciously argue a loosing point and you have a capacity for obfuscatory verbosity that is extraordinary. I would hire you in a second. I am serious!

For the rest of you guys,

I learned heel and toe shifting 30 years ago in my dad's speedster. The pedals seemed to be ideal for that type of driving. I have yet to hit the accelerator in my 944S with the heel of my foot! Perhaps I will try with my heel of my foot on the brakes and use my toes for blipping the accelerator.

Thanks to this thread I am finished with my old habit of engine braking and wanting to use heel and toe to equalize the engine and tranny while I decelerate with the inexpensive BRAKES!!!