tazman

I believe for some of the early cars it was an option.

Well it seems according to Dave my price for the sway bars is high. I looked around last night and could not find any to compare to price them so I am open for offers. Also just so you know I read somewhere that some of the TurboS models were equipped with a 16mm rear bar.

Z-man you would have more understeer with a bigger front bar because you have the wider tires on the front. That MIGHT not be the same as somebody running the factory tire size.

SamGrant951

Tom, from what Ive seen most complete used sets seem to for around 400-500 dollars.

If no one wants them or you dont like the offers, let me know...Im going to buy some, but didnt plan on right this second...you know the story...its hard to say no

Bryans951

If you decide to use just the front 951 sway, I have one off of my 86 that I'll sell for $25 plus shipping. Just let me know.

On another note....make sure that you look at the price of the bushings before you decide on a front bar. You could end up paying twice as much for the bushings as you did for the bar.

N_Halbert

I believe the earlier 924/944's came with out one standard and was only installed as part of an option.

The later 924s/944/944s came standard with a rear swaybar.

You are correct, with everything else the same, addition of a larger front bar will increase understear. But the addition of a larger cross section tire will decrease understear. Whether one fully cancels the other is unknown.

In addition, the addition of a stiffer rear sway will decrease understear.

On this I have to disagree with the Turbo S bar. The 968 M030 bars were designed to work as a set. That is why I went with the 30mm/19mm setup. The car is a 90 S2 and like you I have gone to 245x45-16s on 8 inch rims all the way around. The rear bar is set at full firm. This setup straps the car down considerable over the stock bars. Then it is just a matter of playing with tire pressures to get the desired handling.

The softer Turbo bar will induce even more overstear, for autoX good, street, track bad.

I have found M030 is a very good setup for AutoX but at DE's the rear may be a bit too loose. I will either drop the rear a knotch for the track or run the rears 2 to 4 lb softer than the fronts.

Even with the 968 M030 setup it is suprising to see how much roll you still get when viewed from the outside.

Z-man

Tazman: Like Neil stated: a wider tire will NOT increase understeer: it has the opposite effect, since there's more traction in the front.

Neil:
I think the only difference in our setups is that you have the M030 front swaybar, while I just have the 951 front sway bar.

I think our differing driving styles are reflected in the setup. I prefer a crisper turn in vs. more understeer, and so far have not let the oversteer monster bite me on the track! (Knock on wood)

-Z-man.

Dave

Sorry Tom, hope I didn't mess ya up!
Sam, for $400-500 I'll take mine off and sell 'em

I got mine a year or two ago, I put up a WTB ad in the Rennlist classifieds and Emailed 2 wrecking yards. Within a few days I had a half dozen responses ranging from single bars to package deals with every last nut and bolt and prices were all over the map. Had I wanted to get the cheapest posible price, I could have gone with front and rear from seperate sellers for a total of about $85. I prefered one stop shopping and had several to choose from between $100 and $200. Ended up getting them From Autotech Plus, They sent me everything I needed except the bolts that attach the rear droplink to the car (mine had no factory rear bar) for $100 +shipping.

N_Halbert

Like you say Tazman, it's a matter of style Or may be lack there of in some cases. I have a tendecy to loop it at least once during any given AutoX and had it come around on me in the Inner loop at the Glen. That was more a case of not being on the gas. With this setup the car is very neutral and planted if your on throttle in the turn. If you are off or chop the throttle off you can get it to rotate nicely then on power to pull it back in.

I backed it in to the tires in 6 last summer at the Glen but that was more a case of being off line too wide on an off camber and out in the loose stuff.

SamGrant951

I may be way out of it, buy I was refering to the Weltmeister sway bars Tom spoke of, complete set.

tazman

Z-man according to what you are saying having wider tires up front feels more like having having a smaller sway bar on the front? But I guess it would still be different since you are increasing your traction up front???

Dave no problem I do not sell much and I always hate trying to price stuff. I try to give things at a fair price that is why I searched first but did not really find any prices. I think (hope) Sam was referring to the Weltmeister bars which I know do go for around that price.

Skip

Rear sway was an option until the 86 951 and 87 944.

Too big of front tires will increase understeer and reduce braking ability (mass)... key word is "too" big. Going one or two sizes bigger is okay, but some folks get carried away, or try to match front and rear (in wider widths) which is not (Andial wrote about this years ago).

The 30/19 bars were made to work as a set, but only on the 968 M030 cars with 160+ springs and 25.5mm Tbars. Any other setup might change the dynamic... and, they were still hedging the safety envelope for understeer at that time. Most of us like to reduce the understeer for track duty - is a religious argument tho'.

JediAgent

If it helps any im running the stock fuchs with 205/60/15 and 215/60/15 (i think) on fresh KYB's and Falcon tires. I know i need to change the KYB's, but i want to do it later when they are more used so i feel like i got my moneys worth, kinda.

fezz

i'm getting ready to do this too:

here's a good source
Jim Pasha. Excellence. May 1994

http://www.924.org/techsection/Suspe...reparation.htm

besides good info on suspension preparation, he charts, what i think are, balanced suspension components:

Year/model f/spring f/sway r/torsion r/sway

82-84 944 160# 20mm 23.5mm 14mm (opt)

85-86 944 2946N 20mm 23.5mm 14mm (opt)
(M030 opt) 2698N 21.5 solid or 23X3.5 tubular

87-89 944 2946N 21.5mm 23.5mm 18mm (opt)
(M030 opt) 3050N 25.5X4 tubular

87-88 944s 3535N 21.5mm 23.5mm 18mm
(M030 opt) 3286N 23mm 25.5mm 20mm (opt)

(see source for continuation)

so, in my case, with 23.5mm torsion bars that i dont want to change, i will be using bars from 87 turbo (25.5mm front and 18mm rear) if i upgrade
to 3050N springs (how much is that in pounds???) i should have a balanced suspension.

hope the chart helps

fezz

SCAN

Z-man

N_Halbert:
So far, I have no spins in my DE logbook. My car does get squirrelly when I autocross, but I've never spun there either! Maybe I'm not driving hard enough.... hehe...

Turn 6: you mean the top of the esses? Yikes! That's a fast part of the course! I learned this summer that in the inner loop (aka bus stop) the car is much more stable on positive throttle.

The problem with a dual purpose DE / autox car is you really can't use the same suspension for both! IMHO, a softer sprung car with a little dialed in oversteer is a good autox setup, while for track, I would prefer a stiffer suspension, with a little more neutral handling.
How big is too big? Upon the advise of a seasoned 944S2 driver (and our region's PCA club pres), I went with 8Jx16's with 245-45/16's at all four corners. While I'm no expert, as an intermediate driver (White run group in DE), I noticed an immediate difference in my car's handling with the wider tires up front: turn in was crisper, and there was less understeer in the turns. IIRC, the tire the Michelin recommends for the 944 series in PCA club racing is 245-45/16 at all four corners.

I noticed the same benefits at the Zone 1 autocross last October: day one, I drove with 225-50-16's front, 245-45-16's rear. Plowing all over the place! (The Tobay Beach parking lot is awfully slippery! ) I managed to place 3rd (out of three in class), a whole 2 seconds out of second place at the end of the first day. I found out that I could run with the 245-45-16's up front, and switched the tires for day two. Understeer was more managable, and I made up for the 2 second deficit and TOOK SECOND PLACE! (Beat the 968 driver by 0.097 seconds in the combined score!) Whoo hoo!! And there's scientific evidence that the 245's helped up front!
That's what I've been told, and why I just swapped out just the rear sway bar. I don't think my car oversteers so much that it is dangerous: it will still understeer in most slower, tighter corners on the track, and tight autocross turns. My setup has just made the whole understeer thing a little more managable.

Of course, YMMV,

And sorry for the long post.
-Z-man.

Z-man

Not exactly. A wider tire will give you more grip (typically), due to the increased contact patch with the road surface. A 'thinner' sway bar will give you a softer suspension and more lean, allowing more weight transfer to the front.
So wider tires dial out understeer with increased traction, while a softer front suspension does it more by allowing more weight transfer.

Note that going too soft or too wide is no good either: there's always a 'break even' point. Also: making a car handle great is all about balance: whether you only play around with tires and sway bars, or whether you go with a super-stiff track suspension.

Getting back to the autox vs. track setups, on the track, at higher speeds, a firmer suspension will be able to compress more than at slower autox speeds. That's why the track cars with their super-stiff suspension aren't really ideal for autocross: they are going too slow to fully utilize their super stiff suspension, so the car will plow!

I am simplifying here, and using wide brush strokes, but that's how I see it.
Please correct me if my assumptions are off.

KNOWING the proper setup for a given application is something that we all search for! I think I have found a decent setup for my car, but I don't know that for a fact: it just seems to work well for me.

-Z-man.