Trying to do my own brake job - Help!
12-17-2003, 09:55 PM
#31
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Really appreciate all these tips - Alex, I sent you an email....best of luck on the exams!
Luis - It will be interesting to see if I have those silencers on my 89 - two things not in my favor 1. car is an 89 s2 (don't have the cool rear wing - maybe other things were left off too) and 2. This was deep Ice's car - the "350,000 mile" car although when I bought it he said it might only have 250,00 on it - same diff
Matt H - I probably do need new rotors but I think I am going to try and do this brake job on the cheap - would love to find a good price on some cross drilled rotors and get some pagid pads for 15,000 miles down the road (maybe sooner depending on how the machining bit works out) Of course that big red kit Ian is trying to put together would be awesome...Does anyone know if the 89 S2 has the same brakes as the turbo S or just the std 87 or 88 turbo?
BTW - I bought PBR metal master pads from Paragon - I realize they are def the most economical way to go but I thought I would be paying through the nose to have someone do the work for me - looking back I realize I should have splurged on the pads and planned to do the work myself. Was quoted 3 hours work for the job @ $85 an hour.
The one this I am concerned about is bleeding the brakes if I have to open up the system - has anyone tried those speed bleeders?
Luis - It will be interesting to see if I have those silencers on my 89 - two things not in my favor 1. car is an 89 s2 (don't have the cool rear wing - maybe other things were left off too) and 2. This was deep Ice's car - the "350,000 mile" car although when I bought it he said it might only have 250,00 on it - same diff
Matt H - I probably do need new rotors but I think I am going to try and do this brake job on the cheap - would love to find a good price on some cross drilled rotors and get some pagid pads for 15,000 miles down the road (maybe sooner depending on how the machining bit works out) Of course that big red kit Ian is trying to put together would be awesome...Does anyone know if the 89 S2 has the same brakes as the turbo S or just the std 87 or 88 turbo?
BTW - I bought PBR metal master pads from Paragon - I realize they are def the most economical way to go but I thought I would be paying through the nose to have someone do the work for me - looking back I realize I should have splurged on the pads and planned to do the work myself. Was quoted 3 hours work for the job @ $85 an hour.
The one this I am concerned about is bleeding the brakes if I have to open up the system - has anyone tried those speed bleeders?
12-17-2003, 10:18 PM
#32
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Josh,
You have a legendary car! I'm so glad it didn't get parted out. About purging the brake system, now that I think of it, I guess I didn't consider the caliper bleed screws at all because I didn't want to bleed the brakes, just replace the pads. To do this, just empty out the brake fluid reservoir and install the pads. Top it off with fresh DOT4 fluid after you're done.
As for the silencers, on my car the PO had installed them in the front pads only. I went all out and did all four corners. The results have been great -not a peep from the new pads from day one.
The pads themselves are pretty much up to your personal preference and driving style. If you intend to track the car, Ferodos and the like are great, but they tend to eat up rotors. PBR is an excellent choice for overall driving conditions. I just bought a set of Mintex front pads for the 83 which I am told produce very little brake dust. We'll see how they turn out.
Regarding the brakes, the S2 has the base turbo brakes. That is, the non-S brakes. The turbo S was fitted with 928S4 front calipers from the factory. Nevertheless, I also own a late turbo and find that the S2 has excellent stopping power.
You have a legendary car! I'm so glad it didn't get parted out. About purging the brake system, now that I think of it, I guess I didn't consider the caliper bleed screws at all because I didn't want to bleed the brakes, just replace the pads. To do this, just empty out the brake fluid reservoir and install the pads. Top it off with fresh DOT4 fluid after you're done.
As for the silencers, on my car the PO had installed them in the front pads only. I went all out and did all four corners. The results have been great -not a peep from the new pads from day one.
The pads themselves are pretty much up to your personal preference and driving style. If you intend to track the car, Ferodos and the like are great, but they tend to eat up rotors. PBR is an excellent choice for overall driving conditions. I just bought a set of Mintex front pads for the 83 which I am told produce very little brake dust. We'll see how they turn out.
Regarding the brakes, the S2 has the base turbo brakes. That is, the non-S brakes. The turbo S was fitted with 928S4 front calipers from the factory. Nevertheless, I also own a late turbo and find that the S2 has excellent stopping power.
12-18-2003, 12:37 AM
#33
Luis, if you open the bleed screw unless you do something that would cause suction you wont need to bleed them (notice I said open it a LITTLE). Open, press pads in, close while still pressing.
Friendan - turning, machining, etc all the same things. Use brake lathe to get parallel surface and new finish. I would have to check the book at the office for specs. To be honest, on my own cars unless I have a pulsation I often do not turn the rotors. If I do not turn them then I chuck them on the next job. If I do turn them I still chuck them on the next brake job. I think for an NA I would use dealer pads (if money is not an issue), PBR is okay, Performance Friction make a few variants, there are literally hundreds to choose from, depends on what your car is used for.
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Friendan - turning, machining, etc all the same things. Use brake lathe to get parallel surface and new finish. I would have to check the book at the office for specs. To be honest, on my own cars unless I have a pulsation I often do not turn the rotors. If I do not turn them then I chuck them on the next job. If I do turn them I still chuck them on the next brake job. I think for an NA I would use dealer pads (if money is not an issue), PBR is okay, Performance Friction make a few variants, there are literally hundreds to choose from, depends on what your car is used for.
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12-18-2003, 01:17 AM
#34
Burning Brakes
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i think it's not such a bad idea to bleed the brakes anyways. as long as you're going to have the wheels off and will be attacking each hub, why not make brake bleeding part of brake service? if you get the motive power bleeder it's really not that much work at all. just do the pad and rotor replacement in the order that you would bleed them and there's no retracing your work.
one bit of advice that i'm not sure if anyone's said yet is to not let the master go dry. if you run out of fluid, you will be sucking in air and you'll have to start all over again. even beyond this, i've heard that it does damage to the master for it to have no fluid in it
one bit of advice that i'm not sure if anyone's said yet is to not let the master go dry. if you run out of fluid, you will be sucking in air and you'll have to start all over again. even beyond this, i've heard that it does damage to the master for it to have no fluid in it
12-18-2003, 01:26 AM
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Josh,
If you want you can come over to my shop in Chamblee and I will teach you how to bleed your brakes. Also I got my drilled Brembo rotors for under $90 each. As for pads Mintex are great for street. I would not use them for the track or an Autocross.
Craig
If you want you can come over to my shop in Chamblee and I will teach you how to bleed your brakes. Also I got my drilled Brembo rotors for under $90 each. As for pads Mintex are great for street. I would not use them for the track or an Autocross.
Craig
12-18-2003, 01:32 AM
#36
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Thanks for the info Matt...It's hard to know what to do, everyone gives different advice...i suppose it would make sense to machine them when i do my pads, but i don't get a lot of vibration right now as is when braking...I wouldn't want to mess with a good thing, but at the same time if i don't machine them they might wear down my new pads quicker...
And yes, money is sort of an issue right now...i wouldn't mind just using a good quality aftermarket pad...
And yes, money is sort of an issue right now...i wouldn't mind just using a good quality aftermarket pad...
12-18-2003, 01:39 AM
#37
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Well, since dealer pads are outrageously expensive, PBRs or Mintex are a good option. My 83 never does track or autocross, so after the PBRs, I decided to try Mintex for around $36 an axle.
If you like dealer quality, they can be sourced as OEM (Pagid) from aftermarket parts suppliers, although I'm not certain that they're the exact same composition. Porsche R&D has traditionally taken pride in their brake development.
If you like dealer quality, they can be sourced as OEM (Pagid) from aftermarket parts suppliers, although I'm not certain that they're the exact same composition. Porsche R&D has traditionally taken pride in their brake development.
12-18-2003, 03:52 AM
#38
Burning Brakes
When you are levering the piston back into the caliper be patient and allow plenty of time for the piston to go back against the pressure of the brake fluid. Its slow- more a kind of maintained pressure than lever
Also wrap a piece of rag around the neck of the fluid reservoir in case you get some spillage when the fluid is pushed back up into the top up container. Lazy me I never have taken fluid out in case I get an airlock and have to bleed the system
Like you say It hardly seems cost effective to skim when you can pick up new rotors for $40.00 ea ( less than the cost of brake pads?)
Be very gentle with the bleed screws on the calipers if you do bleed the system as they are very fragile and will easily shear off if you are heavy handed. You should really only need to apply a gentle fingertip pressure to open and close them
Also wrap a piece of rag around the neck of the fluid reservoir in case you get some spillage when the fluid is pushed back up into the top up container. Lazy me I never have taken fluid out in case I get an airlock and have to bleed the system
Like you say It hardly seems cost effective to skim when you can pick up new rotors for $40.00 ea ( less than the cost of brake pads?)
Be very gentle with the bleed screws on the calipers if you do bleed the system as they are very fragile and will easily shear off if you are heavy handed. You should really only need to apply a gentle fingertip pressure to open and close them
12-18-2003, 08:57 AM
#39
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Hey Craig - nice 968! Would like to know where you sourced the cross drilled rotors - that price sounds about right. Are you going to be around on Sat in case we need to bleed the brakes?
12-18-2003, 11:18 AM
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Thanks for the compliment, I am lowering it tomorrow I hope that makes it look a little better. It looks like a 4x4 now.
I get some of my parts from Performance Imports (770) 457-5550. They are good people and a great shop for Porsches. I also get stuff from Auto Atlanta. Many people Hate Auto Atlanta but I have had great service from George (owner) and if you talk to him you get better prices than if you talk to one of his parts dorks. For example I asked one of his Dorks for a price on some exhaust valves and his quoted me $99. 20 min later I called George and he priced them at $30 ea. Also Auto Atlanta is the only place that I have seen Super Blue brake fluid locally. And lastly try the dealer. thier prices can supprise you very often, be sure to tell them that you are a Porsche club member. For example AJ USA sells the lighted key and the blank for $35.94 but the dealer only charged me $23. Also AJ USA charges $558 For 4 Cross drilled rotors for an 86 951 But I got Brembos from Performance Imports for $340. So the moral of the story is search for the best price on your parts. I just wonder why some of the retailers feel like they need to make a killing at our expense???
I will be around on Friday and Sat if you need help let me know. Email me wwboater@comcast and I'll get you a # to get in touch with me.
I get some of my parts from Performance Imports (770) 457-5550. They are good people and a great shop for Porsches. I also get stuff from Auto Atlanta. Many people Hate Auto Atlanta but I have had great service from George (owner) and if you talk to him you get better prices than if you talk to one of his parts dorks. For example I asked one of his Dorks for a price on some exhaust valves and his quoted me $99. 20 min later I called George and he priced them at $30 ea. Also Auto Atlanta is the only place that I have seen Super Blue brake fluid locally. And lastly try the dealer. thier prices can supprise you very often, be sure to tell them that you are a Porsche club member. For example AJ USA sells the lighted key and the blank for $35.94 but the dealer only charged me $23. Also AJ USA charges $558 For 4 Cross drilled rotors for an 86 951 But I got Brembos from Performance Imports for $340. So the moral of the story is search for the best price on your parts. I just wonder why some of the retailers feel like they need to make a killing at our expense???
I will be around on Friday and Sat if you need help let me know. Email me wwboater@comcast and I'll get you a # to get in touch with me.
12-18-2003, 06:19 PM
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Just a couple of thoughts to add that I haven't seen come up yet in this thread.
If you have never topped up you fluid between pad changes you don't have to worry about brake fluid overflow if after you finsh changing a corner you pump the brakes back up. If you don't do between each corner the will all be back to the max and cause a potental over flow.
To remove the rotor, have an impact screw driver on hand to remove the set screw holding the rotor in place. With out one it can become an exercise in frustration. When you reassemble, apply a little copper antiseize compound. You will thank yourself latter.
If you are getting pulsation in the peddal it most likely is not a "warped" rotor but a case where pad material has migrated to the surface of the disk. Very common with cars that have been driven hard and put away hot. Also VERY common with Pagid pads. I don't use them any more for this reason, not to mention the Trash truck coming to a stop squeal they make. I have switched to Performance Friction, I believe the 90 compound and I'm Very happy with them on the street and track. I had a pulsation when I put them on after a set of Pagid Oranges but that cleared up after my first track event with them.
Drilled rotors are a bit of over kill. They look cool but if they are not done correctly can end up shortening the life of the rotor and be dangerous due to cracking. The only through hole rotors you should use are ones where the holes are cast in, i.e. 968's. Just drilling a stock rotor can be dangerous. My preference is gas sloted only rotors. Greater surface area, better ware along with evacuating gasses the build up between pad and disk under heavy use, not to mention lighter and stronger than proper through hole rotors. If you are doing only street driving the stock rotors are your best bet. More surface area and cheaper.
I said you don't have to drain any fluid if you do things correctly but as a while your in there you might as well bleed and flush the fluid. Especially if it has been over 12 months for a tracked/autoXed car and 24 for street only. Our region requires that it is changed yearly for track events. Over time it will pick up moisture which will decrease effectiveness under severe use.
I have the speed bleeders and, short of having a pressure bleeder, this is the only way I can see of doing a solo brake bleed properly. I'm a very satisfied customer.
One last thing. Jack stands. NEVER and I mean NEVER do a brake job with the car only sitting on the jack. Do it only on a level concrete surface with wheel blocks and stands. I have heard of too many back yard mechanics being found crushed or being injured by a car rolling off a jack or it sinking into a soft surface. If nothing place the removed tire under the rocker. I'll admit I've had a car or two drop in my youth and lucky enough to have walked away clean.
Good luck. It is a easy job if you prepare for it and as you have pointed out, you can save yourself some significat change.
Neil
90 S2
If you have never topped up you fluid between pad changes you don't have to worry about brake fluid overflow if after you finsh changing a corner you pump the brakes back up. If you don't do between each corner the will all be back to the max and cause a potental over flow.
To remove the rotor, have an impact screw driver on hand to remove the set screw holding the rotor in place. With out one it can become an exercise in frustration. When you reassemble, apply a little copper antiseize compound. You will thank yourself latter.
If you are getting pulsation in the peddal it most likely is not a "warped" rotor but a case where pad material has migrated to the surface of the disk. Very common with cars that have been driven hard and put away hot. Also VERY common with Pagid pads. I don't use them any more for this reason, not to mention the Trash truck coming to a stop squeal they make. I have switched to Performance Friction, I believe the 90 compound and I'm Very happy with them on the street and track. I had a pulsation when I put them on after a set of Pagid Oranges but that cleared up after my first track event with them.
Drilled rotors are a bit of over kill. They look cool but if they are not done correctly can end up shortening the life of the rotor and be dangerous due to cracking. The only through hole rotors you should use are ones where the holes are cast in, i.e. 968's. Just drilling a stock rotor can be dangerous. My preference is gas sloted only rotors. Greater surface area, better ware along with evacuating gasses the build up between pad and disk under heavy use, not to mention lighter and stronger than proper through hole rotors. If you are doing only street driving the stock rotors are your best bet. More surface area and cheaper.
I said you don't have to drain any fluid if you do things correctly but as a while your in there you might as well bleed and flush the fluid. Especially if it has been over 12 months for a tracked/autoXed car and 24 for street only. Our region requires that it is changed yearly for track events. Over time it will pick up moisture which will decrease effectiveness under severe use.
I have the speed bleeders and, short of having a pressure bleeder, this is the only way I can see of doing a solo brake bleed properly. I'm a very satisfied customer.
One last thing. Jack stands. NEVER and I mean NEVER do a brake job with the car only sitting on the jack. Do it only on a level concrete surface with wheel blocks and stands. I have heard of too many back yard mechanics being found crushed or being injured by a car rolling off a jack or it sinking into a soft surface. If nothing place the removed tire under the rocker. I'll admit I've had a car or two drop in my youth and lucky enough to have walked away clean.
Good luck. It is a easy job if you prepare for it and as you have pointed out, you can save yourself some significat change.
Neil
90 S2
12-22-2003, 09:17 AM
#42
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UPDATE - Alex came over on Sat morning - We got the car jacked up, wheels off, and calipers unbolted pretty quickly. Then to get the pads out we had to open up the bleed screw and use channel locks with tape on the teeth to compress against the top tab of the pads and the calipers. This was probably the hardest part but after working at it we were able to wiggle the calipers off. The old pads had the silencers that Luis was referring to and those sit down in the pistons so it was easiest to take off the whole caliper and then pry out the pads... We unscrewed the rotors, threw them in a box and took off in Alex's car for Pep Boys. They did not have the right rotor hub? apparently to be able to turn them so we ran over to the local muffler shop - they didn't open till 10 - so we took off for Jim Ellis (Local P-car dealer). Picked up some new silencer's from them - turned out they were more than the cost to turn the rotors and new pads combined They had a gorgeous GT 2 sitting in the lot and said that they are getting in 11 Carrera GTs in Feb of 04.
Dropped off the rotors - picked them up an hour later. Reassembly went smooth - just had to open up that bleed screw and use the old pad backing of Alex's to press against the pistons. Not sure how we would have been able to fit in the pads if the rotors had not been turned - they were very thick. Couldn't get the sensors back in the pads as they were not cut that well - so we just tied those up out of the way. Bolted everything back up - bled the brakes and took her around the block...Everything worked great! Thanks so much Alex!
They had a gorgeous GT 2 sitting in the lot and said that they are getting in 11 Carrera GTs in Feb of 04. Dropped off the rotors - picked them up an hour later. Reassembly went smooth - just had to open up that bleed screw and use the old pad backing of Alex's to press against the pistons. Not sure how we would have been able to fit in the pads if the rotors had not been turned - they were very thick. Couldn't get the sensors back in the pads as they were not cut that well - so we just tied those up out of the way. Bolted everything back up - bled the brakes and took her around the block...Everything worked great! Thanks so much Alex!
