If you have a pic of a 944 with 19" wheels plz post the picture THANKS!!
12-12-2003, 01:04 PM
#16
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I'll be the first to admit my car ran absolutely best with the stock 16" phone dials! These 18's are about as heavy as those 17" Cup clones most people run, and they do make the car feel more sluggish. However with MAP and 18psi it's not that bad 
... the 19's were absolutely horrible, part of that might have been because of the tires (contisport 2's, not sure if it was really the case but it felt like they had **really** flexy sidewalls) but they were definately just too big too.
... the 19's were absolutely horrible, part of that might have been because of the tires (contisport 2's, not sure if it was really the case but it felt like they had **really** flexy sidewalls) but they were definately just too big too.
12-12-2003, 01:07 PM
#17
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Hacker- this is true- the weight of each size wheel varies for the specific wheel. BUT, NORMALLY the larger the wheel, the heavier- the width also plays a role & usually the larger diameter, the wider the wheel gets, as most people try to accomplish both at the same time. But, there is also another, often overlooked, problem- the strength of the wheel in question- some of the really light wheels aren't nearly as strong as the factory Porsche wheels- the weight in many of the large wheels, is reduced by keeping them largely open-faced w/thin spokes, etc & this oftentimes can mean that strength is comprimised. Porsche wheels aren't neccessarily light, but, for their size, they really aren't heavy either. When you consider how much heavier the identical replica wheels are, Porsche must have done something right (or whoever makes Porsche's wheels-?).
Another thing about larger wheels- the RD affects gearing- the stock 951 RD is 24.86" & the Turbo S is 24.68"- the standard 17" tire (255/40/17) is 25.03"- when you increase the RD, you hurt acceleration- you will be able to travel specific speeds at lower rpms- when you get up to the 18" size, you are having to comprimise a good bit- especially for a street car- most people would consider a profile of less than ~110mm a low-profile tire- most enthusiasts, however, do NOT- I think it's safe to say that anything under ~95mm is starting to get pretty short for the street- this is an opinion thing & varies depending on what area one lives in. a 255/40/17 has a profile of 102mm- PERFECT for a street car IMO- when going to an 18" wheel, you either have to raise the RD to keep a relatively streetable profile- it's all a comprimise. A 265/35/18 (a common 18" tire size) has a 92.75mm profile & 25.30"RD- that's a slightly taller RD w/a fairly short profile- there's really no way around it- I would want a 275 or 285/35/18, but most would disagree w/this- it would slow the car down b/c of taller gearing, but, would LOOK great, filling out the wheel wells & the profile would be shorter than stock (which I think most people would like) but, not so short as to be uncomfortable.... Anyway, try the #'s w/a 19" & it get's MUCH more difficult to hit0 hell, a 265/30/19 is 79.5mm profile & 25.26"RD- VERY short profile & still taller RD.... There is one benefit of going tall like that though- a taller wheel/tire has more grip at the limit- it rolls slower than a shorter wheel to keep the car going a given speed (a 50"RD will roll half as fast as a 25"RD will when keeping the car at a given speed). On a race track, however, most people go w/15" - 16" depending on specific 944 variant- it's sort of like Nascars, etc- you get the suspension so stiff that you can use the profile of the tire as your suspension- this small amount of sidewall flex (assuming an excellent speed rating) becomes a large part of the suspension....
Anyway, it's really all a comprimise... but again, 19's are getting pretty fu**ing big! Now, if you want to run those 15" PCCB's....
Another thing about larger wheels- the RD affects gearing- the stock 951 RD is 24.86" & the Turbo S is 24.68"- the standard 17" tire (255/40/17) is 25.03"- when you increase the RD, you hurt acceleration- you will be able to travel specific speeds at lower rpms- when you get up to the 18" size, you are having to comprimise a good bit- especially for a street car- most people would consider a profile of less than ~110mm a low-profile tire- most enthusiasts, however, do NOT- I think it's safe to say that anything under ~95mm is starting to get pretty short for the street- this is an opinion thing & varies depending on what area one lives in. a 255/40/17 has a profile of 102mm- PERFECT for a street car IMO- when going to an 18" wheel, you either have to raise the RD to keep a relatively streetable profile- it's all a comprimise. A 265/35/18 (a common 18" tire size) has a 92.75mm profile & 25.30"RD- that's a slightly taller RD w/a fairly short profile- there's really no way around it- I would want a 275 or 285/35/18, but most would disagree w/this- it would slow the car down b/c of taller gearing, but, would LOOK great, filling out the wheel wells & the profile would be shorter than stock (which I think most people would like) but, not so short as to be uncomfortable.... Anyway, try the #'s w/a 19" & it get's MUCH more difficult to hit0 hell, a 265/30/19 is 79.5mm profile & 25.26"RD- VERY short profile & still taller RD.... There is one benefit of going tall like that though- a taller wheel/tire has more grip at the limit- it rolls slower than a shorter wheel to keep the car going a given speed (a 50"RD will roll half as fast as a 25"RD will when keeping the car at a given speed). On a race track, however, most people go w/15" - 16" depending on specific 944 variant- it's sort of like Nascars, etc- you get the suspension so stiff that you can use the profile of the tire as your suspension- this small amount of sidewall flex (assuming an excellent speed rating) becomes a large part of the suspension....
Anyway, it's really all a comprimise... but again, 19's are getting pretty fu**ing big! Now, if you want to run those 15" PCCB's....
12-12-2003, 01:14 PM
#18
Robby - what are you talking about with the profile #?? Can you tell me what you are measuring at 102mm?
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12-12-2003, 01:29 PM
#20
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Exactly- 255/40/17- as you know, the 255 is width (in mm) & the 17 is diamter (in inches)- the 40 is the "aspect ratio" or percentage of width or sidewall height- in this case, 40% of 255, so, 102mm... This is why it is incorrect to assume that a 35 "series" tire has a shorter profile than a 45 "Series" tire- it's a slightly incorrect line of thought when people start speaking in those terms- for ex: a 335/35/18 has a 117.25mm profile (sidewall height) whereas a 245/45/16 has a 110.25mm profile- in this case, the 45 "series" tire has a shorter sidewall than the 35 "series".... Calculating RD is simple- you may already know this, but, for those who don't...
you add the amounts up... take a 245/45/16-
245 X .45 = 110.25- you have to dbl this # b/c there is profile at top & bottom of the rim- therefore this # becomes 220.5mm- convert to inches or mm- I always go to inches- 220.5/25.4 = 8.68" & add the diamter (16") & you get 24.68"RD- thus the total Rolling Diamter for the 944 Turbo S. Again, you may already have known this, but, I just thought I'd throw it out there in case other's did not...
you add the amounts up... take a 245/45/16-
245 X .45 = 110.25- you have to dbl this # b/c there is profile at top & bottom of the rim- therefore this # becomes 220.5mm- convert to inches or mm- I always go to inches- 220.5/25.4 = 8.68" & add the diamter (16") & you get 24.68"RD- thus the total Rolling Diamter for the 944 Turbo S. Again, you may already have known this, but, I just thought I'd throw it out there in case other's did not...
12-12-2003, 01:31 PM
#21
Ideally you would use a 225/40/18 for the front and a 255/35/18 for the rear. You could also use a 285/30/18 for the rear (a little fender work might be necessary. Both the first two tires a 25" diameter and the 285 is a 24.8. The stock rolling diameter is 24.9".
It does become harder to stay at the same overall RD in a 19 depending on which tire manufacturer you use. The Rd does effect gearing but it is very doubtful you are going to notice 1/3rd of an inch. So doubtful, in fac that often staggered fitments have different overall RD and no one complains about one tire being shorter than the other.
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It does become harder to stay at the same overall RD in a 19 depending on which tire manufacturer you use. The Rd does effect gearing but it is very doubtful you are going to notice 1/3rd of an inch. So doubtful, in fac that often staggered fitments have different overall RD and no one complains about one tire being shorter than the other.
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12-12-2003, 01:53 PM
#22
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It really depends on many variables as to what one would notice RD-wise- the standard rule of thumb is that you vary no more than + or - 2%, so, 24.68" (rear Turbo S) is .18" less than 24.86" (front Turbo S) which is a .73% "+" & a .72% "-" If going to a 255/40/17, then, the dif from the rear of a Turbo S is .35" & that becomes 1.4%, which is STILL w/in the recomended guidelines.
If I were going w/an 18" wheel, I wouldn't want to use a 30% aspect ratio w/out going to at least a 295- preferably a 305- of course, I would really like a 285/35/18- that's getting pretty big- the profile of even a 295/30 is STILL only 88.5mm- that's pretty short for streets around here IMO. The 285/35/18 would give a 99.75mm profile & 25.85"RD- I doubt it would fit w/out exact tolerances & possible fender mods- not sure- if Sami got a 255/35/19 under there, then it may well be possible- that's a 26.03"RD(!). WOW! I just think that rear well needs filling out- but it really doesn't matter for me, as I'm ot of my league w/that type of stuff- it's an everyday driver that's already costing me a fortune for what it's worth & I think I'm going to stick to17's IF I can find them- some 993's preferably, as they are the lightest factory 17's avaiable.... Actually, even lighter than my 16" CS's by ~1lb/ea. The 255/40/17 will fill the well out a HAIR & I'll get a tiny bit more footprint & the wheel will look bigger, etc as well as it will stnad outward a tiny bit more, all w/out adding weight- THEN I can add BR's IF I can get the $ together & can DEFINATELY get some 12.7" 2-piece rotors that weigh less (or at least no MORE) than my current 12" rotors- the little bit here & there will hopefully add up to a better looking & performing car....
If I were going w/an 18" wheel, I wouldn't want to use a 30% aspect ratio w/out going to at least a 295- preferably a 305- of course, I would really like a 285/35/18- that's getting pretty big- the profile of even a 295/30 is STILL only 88.5mm- that's pretty short for streets around here IMO. The 285/35/18 would give a 99.75mm profile & 25.85"RD- I doubt it would fit w/out exact tolerances & possible fender mods- not sure- if Sami got a 255/35/19 under there, then it may well be possible- that's a 26.03"RD(!). WOW! I just think that rear well needs filling out- but it really doesn't matter for me, as I'm ot of my league w/that type of stuff- it's an everyday driver that's already costing me a fortune for what it's worth & I think I'm going to stick to17's IF I can find them- some 993's preferably, as they are the lightest factory 17's avaiable.... Actually, even lighter than my 16" CS's by ~1lb/ea. The 255/40/17 will fill the well out a HAIR & I'll get a tiny bit more footprint & the wheel will look bigger, etc as well as it will stnad outward a tiny bit more, all w/out adding weight- THEN I can add BR's IF I can get the $ together & can DEFINATELY get some 12.7" 2-piece rotors that weigh less (or at least no MORE) than my current 12" rotors- the little bit here & there will hopefully add up to a better looking & performing car....
12-12-2003, 02:15 PM
#23
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Originally posted by Robby
I doubt it would fit w/out exact tolerances & possible fender mods- not sure- if Sami got a 255/35/19 under there, then it may well be possible-
I doubt it would fit w/out exact tolerances & possible fender mods- not sure- if Sami got a 255/35/19 under there, then it may well be possible-
Fender lips are of course rolled.
12-12-2003, 03:26 PM
#24
Actually, industry standard is +/- 3% of the original RD. I use 225/40/18s every day and a set of 215/35/18 on my RX7 (see how short that is) and have never had a problem with the roads. In theory there may be an issue, in practice there are literally loads of people running 18s with 225/265 combo and no problems.
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12-12-2003, 08:01 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
When I replaced the 16in forged ClubSports on my '89 944 Turbo with the 17in Cup2 wheels from my '95 993 my concern was weight and clearance.
The handling/road feel was a lot better, probably due to the newer tires Dunlop 8000s compared with Michelin XGTs. No clearance issues at all.
The weight of the Porsche Cup2 wheels and the tires was as follows:
Front - 205/50 7x17 (tire and wheel) 40lb
Rear - 255/40 9x17 (tire and wheel) 47lb
I will weigh the 16in forged Clubsport wheels/tires and post that info here later.
Another data point:
The weight of the Hollow Spoke Turbo Twists with Michelin Pilot Cups were as follows:
Front - 225/40 7.5x18 (tire and wheel) 42lb
Rear - 265/35 10x18 (tire and wheel) 48lb
Isn't the real issue the total weight ?
I would be interested in knowing what tires/wheels others are running along with the total weights.
The handling/road feel was a lot better, probably due to the newer tires Dunlop 8000s compared with Michelin XGTs. No clearance issues at all.
The weight of the Porsche Cup2 wheels and the tires was as follows:
Front - 205/50 7x17 (tire and wheel) 40lb
Rear - 255/40 9x17 (tire and wheel) 47lb
I will weigh the 16in forged Clubsport wheels/tires and post that info here later.
Another data point:
The weight of the Hollow Spoke Turbo Twists with Michelin Pilot Cups were as follows:
Front - 225/40 7.5x18 (tire and wheel) 42lb
Rear - 265/35 10x18 (tire and wheel) 48lb
Isn't the real issue the total weight ?
I would be interested in knowing what tires/wheels others are running along with the total weights.
12-12-2003, 08:37 PM
#26
Burning Brakes
Visually I think you can have too much wheel, the Mini is a good example, it looks more balanced with 16" wheels, too much wheel dominates the look of a car. I think wheel diameter is out of control these days.
For looks, on our cars 18" is about the max I think.
For looks, on our cars 18" is about the max I think.
12-12-2003, 09:37 PM
#27
Drifting
another reason bigger wheels hurt your performance:
A bigger diameter wheel pushes the rim surface out further. The rim surface comprises alot (the majority?) of the wheel weight.
Rotational inertia is a compound of weight and distance, the further a weight is away from the center axis, the harder it is to spin.
An example of this is ice skaters. Arms out, they spin slow. They tuck their arms in, and they start spinning in a blur. All with the same amount of energy.
A bigger diameter wheel pushes the rim surface out further. The rim surface comprises alot (the majority?) of the wheel weight.
Rotational inertia is a compound of weight and distance, the further a weight is away from the center axis, the harder it is to spin.
An example of this is ice skaters. Arms out, they spin slow. They tuck their arms in, and they start spinning in a blur. All with the same amount of energy.
12-12-2003, 09:49 PM
#28
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I love your car Sami!!!!!!!! (Wait you knew that).
I think your rims look great too.
If you some of you are looking for light strong wheels with great performance, you really cannot buy a much better wheel than the factory 16" Fuchs. One of the reasons they fetch top dollar. Unless you get real creative and daring though if you have an 87+ you are unfortunately SOL.
I think your rims look great too.
If you some of you are looking for light strong wheels with great performance, you really cannot buy a much better wheel than the factory 16" Fuchs. One of the reasons they fetch top dollar. Unless you get real creative and daring though if you have an 87+ you are unfortunately SOL.
12-12-2003, 09:58 PM
#29
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Thanks UDPride, you know your car is pretty damn slick too (or actually both of them) 
I would so love to get my hands on a set of 16" Fuchs, but they're just too hard to come by over here ... one guy has a set for sale but he wants like €1400 !! WHOA!!
I would so love to get my hands on a set of 16" Fuchs, but they're just too hard to come by over here ... one guy has a set for sale but he wants like €1400 !! WHOA!!
12-13-2003, 12:47 AM
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Steve- thanks a LOT for posting those weights- the C2's are my 2nd favorite wheel for these cars (Looks-wise)- 2nd only to the hollow spokes.... I appreciate seeiong the weight sin print- you wouldn't believe how many threads I've started to try to find out how much some of these wheels weigh.... Please let us know what the Club sports weigh- I'm going to list all the wheel weights I know of for these cars, as well as my own CS's- but, still, if you get a chance, please send yours for comparison... I am planning to get some 17" 993 Cups, as they seem to be the lightest- they are actually a pound or so lighter than the 16" CS's & that is the best overall comprimise IMO... I've been told the C2's are way too heavy, BUT, your's aren't much heavier at all than my 16" CS's- the front is lighter, but, you have a smaller tire... Anyway, let me know if you can & thanks again... BTW- what type of tires did you have on the C2's & how new were they when weighed? What about the other wheels you weighed?
Many are listed numerous times b/c I recieved weights from other people for the same wheels- bathroom scales, etc, vary- the CS's w/the Dunlop SP8000's were mine....
C2:
17x7.5- 20lbs
17x9- 23lbs
Club Sports:
16x7- 19lbs
16x9- 21.5lbs
16x7 w/225/50/16 *- 42.5lbs
16x9 w/245/45/16 *- 46.0lbs
*- tires are BRAND NEW Dunlop SP8000's
Hollow Spokes:
18x8- 19.95lbs
18x10- 23.36lbs
996:
17x7- 19.07lbs
17x9- 22.26lbs
C2:
17x7 w/205/50/17*- 44.6lbs
17x9 w/255/40/17*- 49lbs
Tires are Pirelli somethings(?)- not sure how new
Design 90:
16x7- 18.7lbs
16x8- 22lbs
Phone Dial:
16x7- 18.5lbs
16x8- 20lbs
Fuchs:
16x7- 18lbs
16x80 19lbs
Club Sports:
16x7- 18.5lbs
16x9- 20lbs
Flat Dish:
16x7- 18.5lbs
16x8: 20lbs
Club Sports:
16x7- 18.5lbs
16x8- 19.0lbs
16x9- 20.olbs
993:
17x7.5- 18lbs
17x9- 19.5lbs
C2:
17x7.5- 22lbs
17x9- 23.5lbs
Fuchs:
16x6- 17lbs
16x7- 18lbs
16x8- 19lbs
16x9- 20lbs
MAGNESIUM Phone Dials:
16x8- 16.olbs
16x9- 16.5lbs
911 Fuchs Forged 16x6 17.0
911 Fuchs Forged 16x7 18.0
911 Fuchs Forged 16x8 19.0
911 Fuchs Forged 16x9 20.0
914-6 Forged Mag (5-lug) 15x5.5 7.0
928CS Forged 16x8 19.0
944S2 Cast 16x7 18.7
944S2 Cast 16x8 22.0
944S2 Spare (Steel) 16x 29.3
951 Flat Dish Forged 16x7 18.5
951 Flat Dish Forged 16x8 20.0
951 Fuchs Forged 16x7 15.0
951 Fuchs Forged 16x8 16.0
951 Phone Dial Cast 16x7 18.5
951 Phone Dial Cast 16x8 20.0
951 Phone Dial Cast Mag 16x8 16.1
951 Phone Dial Cast Mag 16x9 16.5
951S Clubsport Forged 16x7 18.5
951S Clubsport Forged 16x9 20.0
968 Cast 17x7.5 20.0
968 Cast 17x9 23.0
993 Cast 17x7.5 18.0
993 Cast 17x9 19.5
996 Cast 17x7 19.1
996 Cast 17x9 22.3
996 Cast 18x8 20.0
996 Cast 18x10 23.4
Boxter Cast 17x7 20.3
Boxter Cast 17x8.5 22.7
Club Sports Cast 16x7 19.0
Club Sports Cast 16x9 21.5
Cup Cast 18x8 26.2
Cup Cast 18x10 29.3
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7x16 951 phone dial pcast 18.5
8x16 951 phone dial pcast 20
7x16 Flat Dish Forged 18.5
8x16 Flat Dish forged 20
7x16" 951S FORGED 18.5
9x16 951S FORGED 20
7.5x18 HRE 504 cast ctr 3-piece 16.5
9.5x17 HRE 504 cast ctr 3-piece 18
11x17 HRE 504 cast ctr 3-piece 19.5
7.5x17 Mille Miglia C2t style LATE 24
9x17 Mille Miglia C2t style LATE 26
7.5x17 Mille Miglia C2T style EARLY 25
9x17 Mille Miglia C2T style EARLY 28
7.5x17 Borbet C2t style EARLY 28
9x17 Borbet C2t style EARLY 30
7.5x17 factory 'cup 2' 968 20
9x17 factory 'cup 2' 968 23
951 Aluminum spare -w- tire 26
911/944 Steel spare -w- tire 34
Many are listed numerous times b/c I recieved weights from other people for the same wheels- bathroom scales, etc, vary- the CS's w/the Dunlop SP8000's were mine....
C2:
17x7.5- 20lbs
17x9- 23lbs
Club Sports:
16x7- 19lbs
16x9- 21.5lbs
16x7 w/225/50/16 *- 42.5lbs
16x9 w/245/45/16 *- 46.0lbs
*- tires are BRAND NEW Dunlop SP8000's
Hollow Spokes:
18x8- 19.95lbs
18x10- 23.36lbs
996:
17x7- 19.07lbs
17x9- 22.26lbs
C2:
17x7 w/205/50/17*- 44.6lbs
17x9 w/255/40/17*- 49lbs
Tires are Pirelli somethings(?)- not sure how new
Design 90:
16x7- 18.7lbs
16x8- 22lbs
Phone Dial:
16x7- 18.5lbs
16x8- 20lbs
Fuchs:
16x7- 18lbs
16x80 19lbs
Club Sports:
16x7- 18.5lbs
16x9- 20lbs
Flat Dish:
16x7- 18.5lbs
16x8: 20lbs
Club Sports:
16x7- 18.5lbs
16x8- 19.0lbs
16x9- 20.olbs
993:
17x7.5- 18lbs
17x9- 19.5lbs
C2:
17x7.5- 22lbs
17x9- 23.5lbs
Fuchs:
16x6- 17lbs
16x7- 18lbs
16x8- 19lbs
16x9- 20lbs
MAGNESIUM Phone Dials:
16x8- 16.olbs
16x9- 16.5lbs
911 Fuchs Forged 16x6 17.0
911 Fuchs Forged 16x7 18.0
911 Fuchs Forged 16x8 19.0
911 Fuchs Forged 16x9 20.0
914-6 Forged Mag (5-lug) 15x5.5 7.0
928CS Forged 16x8 19.0
944S2 Cast 16x7 18.7
944S2 Cast 16x8 22.0
944S2 Spare (Steel) 16x 29.3
951 Flat Dish Forged 16x7 18.5
951 Flat Dish Forged 16x8 20.0
951 Fuchs Forged 16x7 15.0
951 Fuchs Forged 16x8 16.0
951 Phone Dial Cast 16x7 18.5
951 Phone Dial Cast 16x8 20.0
951 Phone Dial Cast Mag 16x8 16.1
951 Phone Dial Cast Mag 16x9 16.5
951S Clubsport Forged 16x7 18.5
951S Clubsport Forged 16x9 20.0
968 Cast 17x7.5 20.0
968 Cast 17x9 23.0
993 Cast 17x7.5 18.0
993 Cast 17x9 19.5
996 Cast 17x7 19.1
996 Cast 17x9 22.3
996 Cast 18x8 20.0
996 Cast 18x10 23.4
Boxter Cast 17x7 20.3
Boxter Cast 17x8.5 22.7
Club Sports Cast 16x7 19.0
Club Sports Cast 16x9 21.5
Cup Cast 18x8 26.2
Cup Cast 18x10 29.3
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7x16 951 phone dial pcast 18.5
8x16 951 phone dial pcast 20
7x16 Flat Dish Forged 18.5
8x16 Flat Dish forged 20
7x16" 951S FORGED 18.5
9x16 951S FORGED 20
7.5x18 HRE 504 cast ctr 3-piece 16.5
9.5x17 HRE 504 cast ctr 3-piece 18
11x17 HRE 504 cast ctr 3-piece 19.5
7.5x17 Mille Miglia C2t style LATE 24
9x17 Mille Miglia C2t style LATE 26
7.5x17 Mille Miglia C2T style EARLY 25
9x17 Mille Miglia C2T style EARLY 28
7.5x17 Borbet C2t style EARLY 28
9x17 Borbet C2t style EARLY 30
7.5x17 factory 'cup 2' 968 20
9x17 factory 'cup 2' 968 23
951 Aluminum spare -w- tire 26
911/944 Steel spare -w- tire 34