Racing
12-18-2018, 09:02 PM
#91
Race Car
Thread Starter
BTW Walt is getting Facts and Figures to find out exactly what made came factory on the Rothmans Turbo cup Cars that allowed in "G" Stock. If they get that hashed out, That's what I am going to aim for. At least on paper there will be a really good chance of running well as opposed to being the one of the heaviest cars in F Stock, Plus boost goes to 1 Bar in G Stock. They are working this out to attract more 951's... Problem is there really isn't any "Spec" Sheet, There is plenty of knowledge ...Mag intakes , Mag wheels, ect ect but we are looking for documented proof... that is proving difficult.
951s are gonna flock to G stock to weigh +120 lbs from where they were in SP3 and be competitive vs Cayman PDK....?
You are making a mistake.
Look at the big tracks, Sebring, Daytona, Road America...., fields of 20 SP3 cars each event...., 2-3 G cars total.
Is G stock big at the tracks near you Glen...?
Watkins shows 6 G cars at PCA race 2018, 18 SP3 cars.
What's worse, you will be grouped with cars way out of the 944T's league.
Doesn't seem like a big deal until you are always on the outside of turns letting GTC cars lap you every 3-4 turns.
Seems more wise to configure your car for SP3, run with large group of cars on close to equal footing/lap times, usually run grouped with Boxsters, of which 50-75% you can pass competitively on track.
Wait it out and see what Dericola/PCA comes up with to even stuff out.
Personally though, I don't see how a 944T can't be "competitive" vs a 100lb lighter S2 or a 100 lb heavier 968.
Can they dominate....?
Maybe not, but I think a top tier driver in a well running, properly set up 944T should fair pretty well.
T
12-19-2018, 09:42 AM
#93
Race Car
Thread Starter
What better place to lay this out here for discussion-
There are three dedicated classes for the 944/968 platform.
SP1 is self explanatory since it's a Spec class with maximum 140 RWHP, only approved shocks, wheels, tires, etc. open to all 944NA 8V, except the '89 2.7L
SP2 is pretty much the same as far as engine mods but allows '89 2.7L with a weight penalty and similar configurations (944T brakes) that incur same.
Difference is, there are two sub categories here, "stock" and prepared", DME chips, wheel/tire, a few other items separate the two.
Happy to get into fine detail with either of those two classes as most of our track friends race SP1 and our main run class for the past several years has been SP2 Prepared but, since my own current focus is on a build up of one of the allowable formats and most attention seems to be related to SP3, let's dig into the details of the most diverse class for the 944 platform,
Eligible cars -
1987-88 Porsche 944S
1986-89 Porsche 944 Turbo
1989-91 Porsche 944S2
1992-95 Porsche 968
Legal weights (with driver) -
944S - 2500
944T - 2900
944S2 - 2800
944TS - 3000
968 - 2900
Factory stated Horsepower/Torque vs. minimum weight (power to weight ratio) (Specs from Clarks)
944S 188/170 (2500/188) = 13.29 lbs per hp
944T 220/243 (2900/220) = 13.18 lbs per hp
944S2 208/207 (2800/208) = 13.46 lbs per hp
944TS 250/258 (3000/250) = 12.00 lbs per hp
968 236/225 (2900/236) = 12.28 lbs per hp
Every car is illegible for a long list of non-stock allowances.
The 944S "cams are free - must retain hydraulic lifters"
944T & TS are allowed Lindsey Racing Clubgate wastegate, max boost 12.5psi.
On paper, the 944T & TS should be handicapped more, not less, based on torque advantage alone...
What seems to be the problem....?
T
There are three dedicated classes for the 944/968 platform.
SP1 is self explanatory since it's a Spec class with maximum 140 RWHP, only approved shocks, wheels, tires, etc. open to all 944NA 8V, except the '89 2.7L
SP2 is pretty much the same as far as engine mods but allows '89 2.7L with a weight penalty and similar configurations (944T brakes) that incur same.
Difference is, there are two sub categories here, "stock" and prepared", DME chips, wheel/tire, a few other items separate the two.
Happy to get into fine detail with either of those two classes as most of our track friends race SP1 and our main run class for the past several years has been SP2 Prepared but, since my own current focus is on a build up of one of the allowable formats and most attention seems to be related to SP3, let's dig into the details of the most diverse class for the 944 platform,
Eligible cars -
1987-88 Porsche 944S
1986-89 Porsche 944 Turbo
1989-91 Porsche 944S2
1992-95 Porsche 968
Legal weights (with driver) -
944S - 2500
944T - 2900
944S2 - 2800
944TS - 3000
968 - 2900
Factory stated Horsepower/Torque vs. minimum weight (power to weight ratio) (Specs from Clarks)
944S 188/170 (2500/188) = 13.29 lbs per hp
944T 220/243 (2900/220) = 13.18 lbs per hp
944S2 208/207 (2800/208) = 13.46 lbs per hp
944TS 250/258 (3000/250) = 12.00 lbs per hp
968 236/225 (2900/236) = 12.28 lbs per hp
Every car is illegible for a long list of non-stock allowances.
The 944S "cams are free - must retain hydraulic lifters"
944T & TS are allowed Lindsey Racing Clubgate wastegate, max boost 12.5psi.
On paper, the 944T & TS should be handicapped more, not less, based on torque advantage alone...
What seems to be the problem....?
T
12-19-2018, 09:54 AM
#94
Race Car
Thread Starter
For the record, G stock 944 Turbo Playboy Escort Canadian Cup Spec'd car, limited to "1 bar boost" at 2920 allowable minimum weight comes in at 11.68 lbs per hp.
A whopping 5 ounces (.32 lb) per hp better than the SP3 944TS.
Is this worth hunting down parts and going through the trouble to configure to G stock...?
Looking at real race results, fast lap from leading G stock cars are within 2-3 10nths of fastest SP3 times, same track, same event.
If a 944T and TS don't have a chance (according to their owners) in SP3, then they have about the same chance in G stock, except that being beaten by 17 cars per event, they get beat by 2-3...
So, give the 944T cars all 1 bar boost in SP3 and call it a day.
Honestly, I think the cars should be tested in rules compliance form by a trusted entity, Karl Poeltl or another trusted national racer, all 5 variants, same track, same day to evaluate the status quo and eliminate the driver form the equation.
T
A whopping 5 ounces (.32 lb) per hp better than the SP3 944TS.
Is this worth hunting down parts and going through the trouble to configure to G stock...?
Looking at real race results, fast lap from leading G stock cars are within 2-3 10nths of fastest SP3 times, same track, same event.
If a 944T and TS don't have a chance (according to their owners) in SP3, then they have about the same chance in G stock, except that being beaten by 17 cars per event, they get beat by 2-3...
So, give the 944T cars all 1 bar boost in SP3 and call it a day.
Honestly, I think the cars should be tested in rules compliance form by a trusted entity, Karl Poeltl or another trusted national racer, all 5 variants, same track, same day to evaluate the status quo and eliminate the driver form the equation.
T
12-19-2018, 10:46 AM
#95
Three Wheelin'
Yes, Mine is a TS, But according to SP3 Rules the only difference that isn't "Free" is the Turbocharger itself.(The Brakes the LSD all free) ..So According to the Rule book the "Regular 86" Turbo is allowed 2800 not 2900... and the TS 3000, . That would be a no brainer for me to backdate Bolt on my 86 Turbocharger and run at 2800, Lighter than a 968 but they have 6 speeds... That is more than likely where I will end up, but I still have a way to go...
It all comes down to what is the most "FUN" lets face it that's why we do it.. Its just not Fun to run in the back.
It all comes down to what is the most "FUN" lets face it that's why we do it.. Its just not Fun to run in the back.
12-19-2018, 11:51 AM
#96
Race Car
Thread Starter
Yeah, I see that, 2019, all 944T is 2800.
Pfft, what are you waiting for....?
That's +70 lb/ft torque over the 944S.
Really, no way they should allow either turbo car more boost.
I would say, after way long a road and much invested, that it's ME barking up the wrong tree with the 2.5L 16V but....., we have a 968 to race too, so....
T
Pfft, what are you waiting for....?
That's +70 lb/ft torque over the 944S.
Really, no way they should allow either turbo car more boost.
I would say, after way long a road and much invested, that it's ME barking up the wrong tree with the 2.5L 16V but....., we have a 968 to race too, so....
T
12-20-2018, 01:14 AM
#99
Rennlist Member
Sorry it took awhile to get back, thanks for the reply. I've been dismantling my dashboard the past week trying to fix my jammed up ignition switch.
I'd seen that as well and notice the weight limit on my '89 S2 are the highest in the SP3 class, almost guaranteeing a place at the back of the pack? Today GPA951s mentioned it wasn't all that fun to run at the back all the time and I can sort of understand his point. If I were to carefully observe the SP3 weights I might be able to trade a cool suit box for A/C if I could roll up the windows and use my turn signals but that doesn't seem likely.
What I'm really proposing is a "street" class. One that caters to folks who want to keep their cars street legal but also have fun racing them safely, and safety seems the largest concern because the cage is the biggest problem. I've found a cage ( http://www.stableenergies.com/Safety...nfo/SD%2DP944/ ) that looks like it could solve that for me but I don't know for sure. It seems the front of it can be removed while keeping the rear cage in place. No idea how much time it might take to do that so comments appreciated. Also not sure how much it might effect the dash. The basic idea is to find a half to full cage conversion that could allow a street car to show up for a race with no more than a day's effort to install/uninstall the front of the cage. One that didn't require permanent mods to the dash or other interior components.
Everything else being equal, I think if I could solve the cage problem I could build a car that was safe to race without removing all the carpet, modifying the dash, dropping the A/C, the door cards, etc. But if that could be done, it would still help if the sanctioning body recognized an SP3 "Street" class just for weight reasons.
I understand, which is why I was asking about the bolt-in cage I mentioned above. Maybe it isn't a working solution now, maybe it isn't a solution at all. If it isn't a solution, and there is no acceptable full cage solution, then I agree it would mean having a separate run group for 1/2 cage cars. We might estimate the size of that group by looking at the size of the advanced DE groups, since that's the group that would be most likely to race their cars if the sanctioning body (PCA, NASA, SCCA, etc.) decided to recognize them. In your opinion, is that a large group? My experience has been it is?
The real truth is I don't want to be running my 1989 944 S2 with all of maybe 210hp, on the same track as a 650+ hp full blown circa 2016 (2005) 996 Cup Car, you're right about that. There's no real competition for corners in that pairing and it's not a whole lot of fun. I'd venture it never will be, regardless of how much weight I drop off the 944 or how my cage is built?
Which supports my point; some level of "racing" is already happening but we don't call it racing, instead it's "friendly" competition without point bys. I'm just suggesting we call it what it is and develop it. It seems like there really are folks that already participate?
I understand that as well, but you and I both also understand it's not quite the same as racing. Not that it isn't fun by itself, but it's really more like autocross.
I can't agree. The folks already involved with the more advanced DE events are risking their cars now. Somehow I don't think a hot start would discourage all of them, or even most. Maybe that's a subject worthy of a poll?
Best Regards,
Couple of points to consider though.
1) There are already stock classes for what would be an SP1, 2 and 3. Don't recall all the letter groups right now but for instance, most SP3 cars would be F stock.
Even within SP3 proper, a large portion of the cars that fit in this class are able to keep dash, door cards, etc, because the power/weight determines final race curb weight and for instance, a 968 and a 944TS have to weigh in at 2900 and 3000 respectively. There is even a place for Jim's Cup in G stock and a 968 Firehawk in F stock at 3050 lbs, so...., not much you are gonna be shaving off that one.
1) There are already stock classes for what would be an SP1, 2 and 3. Don't recall all the letter groups right now but for instance, most SP3 cars would be F stock.
Even within SP3 proper, a large portion of the cars that fit in this class are able to keep dash, door cards, etc, because the power/weight determines final race curb weight and for instance, a 968 and a 944TS have to weigh in at 2900 and 3000 respectively. There is even a place for Jim's Cup in G stock and a 968 Firehawk in F stock at 3050 lbs, so...., not much you are gonna be shaving off that one.
What I'm really proposing is a "street" class. One that caters to folks who want to keep their cars street legal but also have fun racing them safely, and safety seems the largest concern because the cage is the biggest problem. I've found a cage ( http://www.stableenergies.com/Safety...nfo/SD%2DP944/ ) that looks like it could solve that for me but I don't know for sure. It seems the front of it can be removed while keeping the rear cage in place. No idea how much time it might take to do that so comments appreciated. Also not sure how much it might effect the dash. The basic idea is to find a half to full cage conversion that could allow a street car to show up for a race with no more than a day's effort to install/uninstall the front of the cage. One that didn't require permanent mods to the dash or other interior components.
Everything else being equal, I think if I could solve the cage problem I could build a car that was safe to race without removing all the carpet, modifying the dash, dropping the A/C, the door cards, etc. But if that could be done, it would still help if the sanctioning body recognized an SP3 "Street" class just for weight reasons.
2) To meet safety requirements (insurance) there's no way PCA would allow 1/2 cage cars on track with full blown race cars competing for the same high speed corner.
So...., that would leave the possibility of a separate run group for cars with 1/2 cage only and the format schedule barely allows enough track time as it is. For instance, SP1, 2 and 3, run a split start with Boxsters sometimes just to make use of a race weekend day's time. More to that point...., some instances, an enduro, inverted start, fun race, etc., have ALL cars grouped together.
If you had ever been on track with 996/7 Cup cars in a 944, you'd already know that the potential risk just due to the difference in closing speed can be very intimidating.
So...., that would leave the possibility of a separate run group for cars with 1/2 cage only and the format schedule barely allows enough track time as it is. For instance, SP1, 2 and 3, run a split start with Boxsters sometimes just to make use of a race weekend day's time. More to that point...., some instances, an enduro, inverted start, fun race, etc., have ALL cars grouped together.
If you had ever been on track with 996/7 Cup cars in a 944, you'd already know that the potential risk just due to the difference in closing speed can be very intimidating.
The real truth is I don't want to be running my 1989 944 S2 with all of maybe 210hp, on the same track as a 650+ hp full blown circa 2016 (2005) 996 Cup Car, you're right about that. There's no real competition for corners in that pairing and it's not a whole lot of fun. I'd venture it never will be, regardless of how much weight I drop off the 944 or how my cage is built?
3) The fastest DE groups are already seasoned guys really hauling the mail. Behind the scenes, even though it's not documented as a race result, there are friendly rivalries going on within the fast DE groups which are basically, "pass anywhere" as opposed to the "greener" groups that have 1-2 passing zones with a point by.
Outside of PCA, - and by the way, this year's Mardi Gras Region NOLA Motorsport's Park PCA race in February will run in conjunction with the NASA event - there is always 'Time Attack' of which there are multiple classes. You + your car, open track attempt at fast lap for your class...., still a competition with way less risk of colliding with something.
Personally, re. your idea, I think that the people in your group are generally people who value more in preserving their machines from track damage.
One hot start at the green with 60 cars in a 2 x 2 lineup going wide open throttle and jockeying for T1 would be enough to scare them off of door to door racing...
T
One hot start at the green with 60 cars in a 2 x 2 lineup going wide open throttle and jockeying for T1 would be enough to scare them off of door to door racing...
T
Best Regards,
Last edited by Otto Mechanic; 12-20-2018 at 05:15 AM. Reason: Clarified (hopefully)
12-20-2018, 04:59 AM
#100
Rennlist Member
PS: It's been suggested in a sort of backhanded way (once and only once to my knowledge) that we need to be careful about characterizing DE events or anything resembling them as racing for insurance reasons, even to the point of not mandating race level safety equipment for DE events just in case it might blur the lines between training and practice, thereby driving up track fees, so if that's correct maybe it would be best for someone to knock twice on the cold water pipe or something? What I'm saying is I'm not looking at the politics of this, I'm a technical guy who doesn't quite understand why we can't do it if there's a big enough group of members who'd like to?
Not trying to stir up muck, just trying to build a car.
Regards,
Not trying to stir up muck, just trying to build a car.
Regards,
12-20-2018, 10:57 AM
#101
Three Wheelin'
PS: It's been suggested in a sort of backhanded way (once and only once to my knowledge) that we need to be careful about characterizing DE events or anything resembling them as racing for insurance reasons, even to the point of not mandating race level safety equipment for DE events just in case it might blur the lines between training and practice, thereby driving up track fees, so if that's correct maybe it would be best for someone to knock twice on the cold water pipe or something? What I'm saying is I'm not looking at the politics of this, I'm a technical guy who doesn't quite understand why we can't do it if there's a big enough group of members who'd like to?
Not trying to stir up muck, just trying to build a car.
Regards,
Not trying to stir up muck, just trying to build a car.
Regards,
If you are going to Race the price of the build is a small price.. Just one race weekend will cost you at least 2K with no return... its all for fun..
As far as the Safety gear for DE.... Why not? They outlawed harness bars as an anchor point.. you now have to have a HANS device if you're running harnesses. They are trying to keep the insurance LOWER by adding all this safety gear... and believe T when he says its a whole different world when you're competing for real-estate when going for a corner with a whole bunch of other cars NOT at all like DE... 3 and 4 wide into the first corner, Ive done it, and im surprised more people don't get "Leaned on" but I came from NASCAR racing where it was "Full contact" sport.. That's the appeal for me in club racing.. I don't have any delusion that my car wont get damaged but I also can fix anything, including a new tub if need be. (Have 2 in the woods)…
T- I have a K 26, Thanks.. Got to send it to Tim for a rebuild though...
12-20-2018, 11:23 AM
#102
Race Car
Thread Starter
@ GPA951s , lol yep, good explanation.
I know at our local track (NOLA is 2nd closest for us), it's two completely different insurance rates for "open lapping" days versus a "race".
And on race days, you have to have two certified (probably way more on a big circuit like COTA) EMS guys sitting in the vehicle with engine running at all times just off track, aimed such that they can go go go at a second's notice. Also, every station has to be manned whereas on a DE or lapping day, you can just man every other station.
On the competitive racing versus anything else...., drivers just don't know until they actually experienced the difference.
That's why they actually hold the "Fun Race" sessions, to acclimate new race rookies on what the hot starts are really like.
In DE, missing a flag is part of the learning experience, in race conditions, it can be catastrophic.
And again, right on the mark with the "Stock" classes, it wasn't until people starting stripping out the 944s and 968s to run in SP classes that they even had to remove A/C and other amenities since in F and E stock, the weight was such that it was not necessary and was just another complication.
T
I know at our local track (NOLA is 2nd closest for us), it's two completely different insurance rates for "open lapping" days versus a "race".
And on race days, you have to have two certified (probably way more on a big circuit like COTA) EMS guys sitting in the vehicle with engine running at all times just off track, aimed such that they can go go go at a second's notice. Also, every station has to be manned whereas on a DE or lapping day, you can just man every other station.
On the competitive racing versus anything else...., drivers just don't know until they actually experienced the difference.
That's why they actually hold the "Fun Race" sessions, to acclimate new race rookies on what the hot starts are really like.
In DE, missing a flag is part of the learning experience, in race conditions, it can be catastrophic.
And again, right on the mark with the "Stock" classes, it wasn't until people starting stripping out the 944s and 968s to run in SP classes that they even had to remove A/C and other amenities since in F and E stock, the weight was such that it was not necessary and was just another complication.
T
12-20-2018, 06:17 PM
#103
Race Car
Thread Starter
2018 PCA National Championship Winners
SP1 1st Mitchell Butaud
SP1 2nd Jose Ayala
SP1 3rd Steve Coomes
SP2 1st Kevin Palmer
SP2 2nd James Rothenberger
SP2 3rd Robbie Wilson
SP3 1st Ed Dunne
SP3 2nd Karl Poeltl
SP3 3rd Jim Hamman
Congrats to all.
T
SP1 1st Mitchell Butaud
SP1 2nd Jose Ayala
SP1 3rd Steve Coomes
SP2 1st Kevin Palmer
SP2 2nd James Rothenberger
SP2 3rd Robbie Wilson
SP3 1st Ed Dunne
SP3 2nd Karl Poeltl
SP3 3rd Jim Hamman
Congrats to all.
T
12-20-2018, 06:52 PM
#104
Rennlist Member
BTW Walt is getting Facts and Figures to find out exactly what made came factory on the Rothmans Turbo cup Cars that allowed in "G" Stock. If they get that hashed out, That's what I am going to aim for. At least on paper there will be a really good chance of running well as opposed to being the one of the heaviest cars in F Stock, Plus boost goes to 1 Bar in G Stock. They are working this out to attract more 951's... Problem is there really isn't any "Spec" Sheet, There is plenty of knowledge ...Mag intakes , Mag wheels, ect ect but we are looking for documented proof... that is proving difficult.
I had some limited correspondence with Walt regarding the proposed rule changes with respect to 944Ts (allowing aftermarket boost control systems/components to replace old factory parts that are arguably becoming unreliable). I also spoke a little with Karl Poeltl at Road America about it. But I didn't pick up on anything related to the specs of Turbo Cup cars?
All 944 club racers are being pushed into SP3, they are all but unwelcome in the stock classes.
Last edited by Oddjob; 12-20-2018 at 08:26 PM.
12-20-2018, 09:47 PM
#105
Rennlist Member
But that's not really what I was talking about. The rules for Stock allow me to remove the A/C, Heater core, carpeting, rear seat (I think, not sure about that), radio (of course), electric seats, windows, not sure about central locking, definitely air bags, Lexan windows.
Some of the weight saving changes are pretty close to "Street", like containment seats. Removing the heater core? A/C? In a lot of places that would severely limit street use. Removing the airbags would be illegal in some states I think but I'm not certain. I've been told any factory installed safety equipment needs to be maintained in working order but I live in a state that doesn't do vehicle inspections. Lexan windows are right out for street.
So, what I'm getting at is that I could race in F Stock, but I'd be doomed by weight. I think it was you that made the observation earlier it's not all that fun to always be in the back of the pack. I guess that's really what an F "Street" (or more practically and "all letter Street") class would be good for; making racing suitably equipped street serviceable cars competitive enough to have fun with. I was thinking maybe it might bring more folks to racing.
For my part, I'll just race F Stock and resign myself to being one more nose-picker at the back of the pack.
As far as the cage, Sure you can bolt and unbolt the front part. You cant see from the pictures but my car has a plate on it, Full Cage Full Race Suspension.. Drove it down the thruway this year to Cars and Coffee. (No Race Tires) My Cage is built so I cannot hit my head anywhere on it when I am seated, its tight and way out of the way... No matter what though unless you live in Canada where the Roads are smooth... Race suspension Sucks on the street..The Race Clutch is a whole other animal when pulling away from lights... and if you're going to run street suspension then you will be slow on track... its ok for cars and coffee or to take the car out for a rip on the street to test out new go fast goodies...but I Enjoy my factory seats in my street car and AC, and smooth ride and AMP and Stereo...
Regards,