The ultimate 911 upgrade? ;-)
09-26-2003, 05:56 PM
#1
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ultimate 911 upgrade? ;-)
09-26-2003, 06:13 PM
#2
Nordschleife Master
Cool yes...outdated, expensive, and unnecessary though. Modern EFI technology allows for 640hp@1bar of boost (3.4l), 22+mpg and street driveability. Ultimate 911 upgrade, I'd say NO!
09-26-2003, 09:58 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
Here are some general prices to an open ended question:
3.2 Carrera manifold, fuel rails, pressure regulator - $350 - 500
Fuel injectors - $350-$600 depending on brand and flow matching
930 head porting (to match 3.2 carrera manifold) - 750 - 1200
ECU, sensors, wiring, coils - $2000-$5000 (Haltech - MoTeC)
Spark plug wires - $300-500 (single plug/dual plug)
Intercooler - $1000 (Sperco build to spec)
Plumbing - $500 - 1000
BOV - $250-$300
Dyno tuning 1-1.5 days @ $750 per day
I guess that sums up the major pieces. EFI is incredibly simple and the drivability, power potential, and fuel economy is well worth it.
3.2 Carrera manifold, fuel rails, pressure regulator - $350 - 500
Fuel injectors - $350-$600 depending on brand and flow matching
930 head porting (to match 3.2 carrera manifold) - 750 - 1200
ECU, sensors, wiring, coils - $2000-$5000 (Haltech - MoTeC)
Spark plug wires - $300-500 (single plug/dual plug)
Intercooler - $1000 (Sperco build to spec)
Plumbing - $500 - 1000
BOV - $250-$300
Dyno tuning 1-1.5 days @ $750 per day
I guess that sums up the major pieces. EFI is incredibly simple and the drivability, power potential, and fuel economy is well worth it.
09-27-2003, 02:35 AM
#6
RL Technical Advisor
Re: The ultimate 911 upgrade? ;-)
Like Geoffrey said, there are more drivable solutions nowadays since the 935 motors were pretty radical due to cams and crude MFI and they didn't run very well until 5500 RPM.
That said, they made well over 800 HP at 1.4 to 1.6 bar with some aftermarket cams but these were very definitely 25 hr engines (most of the time). No substitute for brute force though, when you needed it,....
09-27-2003, 04:59 AM
#7
RIP
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am in the midst of this and this has been my experience and costs:
Carrera 3.2 intake with fuel rails, gas lines, injectors, throttle body $500
Tial BOV $250 [Geoffrey deal with Tial]
Full bay intercooler, port 3.2 intake for new 70mm throttle body and adapter, charge piping, linkage, twin coil pack rack $2500- $3500
Port and polish heads to match 3.2 intake $1200
Drill heads for twin plug $250
Davtron intercooler in & out air temp gauge $160
New flow matched Seimens 72 lb injectors $400 [these may be for sale, I will be possibly using high impedance injectors instead]
Magnacor twin plug wire set $375
DTA Pro8 ECU with all sensors, crank pulley 36-1 timing wheel, custom wire harness including traction control, Ford TPS and IAC, wide band O2 sensor, CDI box with twin plug Bosch coil packs, custom machine work for cam synch sensor, crank sensor, oil temp sensor, installation, engine dyno break-in of new motor and dyno tuning $6000+
There are more incidental costs ... I probably forgot and a couple of things to consider. The 3.2 fuel lines are known to leak and often are the cause of many 3.2 engine fires ... so, replace these with new factory units {$500+} or have them rebuilt using aeroquip or air craft quality braided fuel lines like I did ...$250. The intercooler, larger throttle body charge piping etc ... can run anywhere from as little as $1000 to well over $4000 depending on what you buy prefab or have custom made. Then may be replace fuel damper and fuel regulator .. I am going with an adjustable regulator $150 so that fuel pressure can be adjusted ..... budget yourself for $10,000 and expect a little more. If you can sell off your old setup .... like I did, you can probably recover $3-$4K so the upgrade will cost out only $6K, which is still a lot but better than $10k.
Carrera 3.2 intake with fuel rails, gas lines, injectors, throttle body $500
Tial BOV $250 [Geoffrey deal with Tial]
Full bay intercooler, port 3.2 intake for new 70mm throttle body and adapter, charge piping, linkage, twin coil pack rack $2500- $3500
Port and polish heads to match 3.2 intake $1200
Drill heads for twin plug $250
Davtron intercooler in & out air temp gauge $160
New flow matched Seimens 72 lb injectors $400 [these may be for sale, I will be possibly using high impedance injectors instead]
Magnacor twin plug wire set $375
DTA Pro8 ECU with all sensors, crank pulley 36-1 timing wheel, custom wire harness including traction control, Ford TPS and IAC, wide band O2 sensor, CDI box with twin plug Bosch coil packs, custom machine work for cam synch sensor, crank sensor, oil temp sensor, installation, engine dyno break-in of new motor and dyno tuning $6000+
There are more incidental costs ... I probably forgot and a couple of things to consider. The 3.2 fuel lines are known to leak and often are the cause of many 3.2 engine fires ... so, replace these with new factory units {$500+} or have them rebuilt using aeroquip or air craft quality braided fuel lines like I did ...$250. The intercooler, larger throttle body charge piping etc ... can run anywhere from as little as $1000 to well over $4000 depending on what you buy prefab or have custom made. Then may be replace fuel damper and fuel regulator .. I am going with an adjustable regulator $150 so that fuel pressure can be adjusted ..... budget yourself for $10,000 and expect a little more. If you can sell off your old setup .... like I did, you can probably recover $3-$4K so the upgrade will cost out only $6K, which is still a lot but better than $10k.
Trending Topics
09-27-2003, 03:00 PM
#9
Instructor
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Seattle, WA.
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sorry, Sameer, you seem like a nice guy, but that comment was sheer ignorance.
A properly designed EFI system is more "driveable" in every way than a CIS system. Sharper throttle response, sharper boost response, better gas mileage, more power from less boost--the list goes on and on.
In my experience, the harshest critics of EFI are the guys who want to convince themselves that their modified CIS systems are the best. They're not. They're cheaper, but even that difference is shrinking.
The key thing with EFI is competent installation and tuning, with a sufficiently sophisticated system. Every day, that is becoming more and more common.
So, if you choose not to go EFI, that's entirely your perogative. But don't fool yourself into thinking your system is either the best, or the strongest, or the most reliable, or the longest-lasting system out there. It's not.
A properly designed EFI system is more "driveable" in every way than a CIS system. Sharper throttle response, sharper boost response, better gas mileage, more power from less boost--the list goes on and on.
In my experience, the harshest critics of EFI are the guys who want to convince themselves that their modified CIS systems are the best. They're not. They're cheaper, but even that difference is shrinking.
The key thing with EFI is competent installation and tuning, with a sufficiently sophisticated system. Every day, that is becoming more and more common.
So, if you choose not to go EFI, that's entirely your perogative. But don't fool yourself into thinking your system is either the best, or the strongest, or the most reliable, or the longest-lasting system out there. It's not.
09-27-2003, 05:52 PM
#10
My friend, I totally agree with you 100%. If I had the backup here in Singapore, I'd do the EFI conversion but I dont. I myself dont think the CIS is better. I was running a Motec M4 before in my Subaru WRX and its so tunable and I loved it once I got the hang of it.
I was refering to the 935 motor in the advertisement above which I should have mentioned in the previous thread. My apoligies
I was refering to the 935 motor in the advertisement above which I should have mentioned in the previous thread. My apoligies
09-27-2003, 05:53 PM
#11
Bruce M,
My friend, I totally agree with you 100%. If I had the backup here in Singapore, I'd do the EFI conversion but I dont. I myself dont think the CIS is better. I was running a Motec M4 before in my Subaru WRX and its so tunable and I loved it once I got the hang of it.
I was refering to the 935 motor in the advertisement above which I should have mentioned in the previous thread. My apoligies
My friend, I totally agree with you 100%. If I had the backup here in Singapore, I'd do the EFI conversion but I dont. I myself dont think the CIS is better. I was running a Motec M4 before in my Subaru WRX and its so tunable and I loved it once I got the hang of it.
I was refering to the 935 motor in the advertisement above which I should have mentioned in the previous thread. My apoligies
09-27-2003, 08:13 PM
#12
RL Technical Advisor
Originally posted by Sameer
600bhp but how driveable isit ? how long can it last? No thank you.
600bhp but how driveable isit ? how long can it last? No thank you.
ROFL,....these were race motors and they actually were VERY successful. I'll let you read up on that subject at your leisure. These 600+ HP 3.0 and 3.2's performed extremely well when operated in the RPM range they were specifically designed for and their longevity was dependent upon boost levels and max RPM,...(just like street Turbo's)
High boost meant high power (over 700 HP) and as a result, short life. As long as they lasted 24.25 hours, we were very pleased. The real problem was that after 24 hours of 1.3-1.5 bar operation, most of the upper end of the engine was trash and everything was replaced except for the case, crank and oil pump. Even the very special 935 heads would crack or be burned under such usage.
No free HP, anywhere,....
Last edited by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems; 09-28-2003 at 02:46 PM.
09-27-2003, 08:23 PM
#13
Instructor
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Seattle, WA.
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sameer--
My bad. I thought you were talking about Geoffrey's and subsequent EFI comments, not the 935 motors. Wouldn't want one of those myself, unless I had true "stable" of cars.
My bad. I thought you were talking about Geoffrey's and subsequent EFI comments, not the 935 motors. Wouldn't want one of those myself, unless I had true "stable" of cars.
09-28-2003, 02:10 AM
#14
Steve,
Thanks for the input but would they last if the were to be run at around 1 bar like our cars? I've read somewhere and I think it was in BA's performance handbook that this guy put in a detuned 962 race engine into his 930. Or was it an article from Andial. Will these cars be as driveable and perform as well as the high horsepowered CIS/ESI 930's?
Thanks for the input but would they last if the were to be run at around 1 bar like our cars? I've read somewhere and I think it was in BA's performance handbook that this guy put in a detuned 962 race engine into his 930. Or was it an article from Andial. Will these cars be as driveable and perform as well as the high horsepowered CIS/ESI 930's?
09-28-2003, 09:25 AM
#15
Nordschleife Master
Sameer,
Yes, there are some pictures and a paragraph on the 935 into 930 conversions. I believe the car was a cabriolet (why?, why?, why?). There was also a 962 put in a C4 by Andial for someone in Saudia Arabia. You have to remember that back in the 80s, that was about it in terms of big hp for 930s, there were no aftermarket EFI technology per se and a 935 was a proven package. Many times people look back at the cool (yes it was cool) things that were done and are awed by names 935, 934, 962, etc. and think "wow, that must be the way to go." When in reality, the newer technology far out performs the older methods.
As Steve mentioned, the 935 engine made power from 5500-8000. Mechanically, the 935 and 930 engines are very similar, if you took a 930 engine and used sealing rings, hot cams and ran silly amounts of boost, you too could have an engine tha produced 700+ hp, and it too would last about 25 hours. It is the high boost pressure and high rpm that reduces engine life. Take for instance a GT3 Cup car, the recommended engine service life is about 75 hours, with a redline at 8100 and dialed it back to say shift at 7500 (where it runs better by the way) and the engine service life goes up. The drivability of an engine configured that way would be terrible on the street, a mild CIS car with sc cams would cream a 935 engined car in 85+% of street situations.
My point here is that all that HP is cool, but is it really worth it in terms of drivability and engine service life? The engine I just built for my car runs at 641hp@1bar and 549hp@.7 bar. When building the engine, I set out to be running 1.2 bar and built the engine accordingly. In reality though I found that I set the car at .7 bar and that is about the most my street chassis can take when tracking the car. More is not necessarily better. The car gets driven from 4000-7000rpm, has virtually no lag, a smooth boost curve which allows for smooth conering. There really hasn't been a need for more power (maybe just a want)...About the only think I can think of doing is to set up MoTeC to allow for .7bar of boost in 1-4gear, and 1bar in 5th which would get me some additional speed down a long straight. My point here is that the engine is operating at stock (low) boost levels, reasonable RPM range (slightly higher than stock), and I expect a long service life. It's powerful enough to out power a GT3 Cup car down a straight, but yet a car that can be driven by my wife on the street.
The reason old technology is cool is because it was the best at that time, but today it is what it is...OLD!
Yes, there are some pictures and a paragraph on the 935 into 930 conversions. I believe the car was a cabriolet (why?, why?, why?). There was also a 962 put in a C4 by Andial for someone in Saudia Arabia. You have to remember that back in the 80s, that was about it in terms of big hp for 930s, there were no aftermarket EFI technology per se and a 935 was a proven package. Many times people look back at the cool (yes it was cool) things that were done and are awed by names 935, 934, 962, etc. and think "wow, that must be the way to go." When in reality, the newer technology far out performs the older methods.
As Steve mentioned, the 935 engine made power from 5500-8000. Mechanically, the 935 and 930 engines are very similar, if you took a 930 engine and used sealing rings, hot cams and ran silly amounts of boost, you too could have an engine tha produced 700+ hp, and it too would last about 25 hours. It is the high boost pressure and high rpm that reduces engine life. Take for instance a GT3 Cup car, the recommended engine service life is about 75 hours, with a redline at 8100 and dialed it back to say shift at 7500 (where it runs better by the way) and the engine service life goes up. The drivability of an engine configured that way would be terrible on the street, a mild CIS car with sc cams would cream a 935 engined car in 85+% of street situations.
My point here is that all that HP is cool, but is it really worth it in terms of drivability and engine service life? The engine I just built for my car runs at 641hp@1bar and 549hp@.7 bar. When building the engine, I set out to be running 1.2 bar and built the engine accordingly. In reality though I found that I set the car at .7 bar and that is about the most my street chassis can take when tracking the car. More is not necessarily better. The car gets driven from 4000-7000rpm, has virtually no lag, a smooth boost curve which allows for smooth conering. There really hasn't been a need for more power (maybe just a want)...About the only think I can think of doing is to set up MoTeC to allow for .7bar of boost in 1-4gear, and 1bar in 5th which would get me some additional speed down a long straight. My point here is that the engine is operating at stock (low) boost levels, reasonable RPM range (slightly higher than stock), and I expect a long service life. It's powerful enough to out power a GT3 Cup car down a straight, but yet a car that can be driven by my wife on the street.
The reason old technology is cool is because it was the best at that time, but today it is what it is...OLD!