Turbo1987

Mikey said the Dealer never signed the Purchase Order. He did not defraud anyone. He showed the car, took a deposit banking on getting the proper paperwork which did not happen. So, he gave Mikey his money back.

I, like JDHertz11, know this happens. Mikey should ask the dealer which auction and try to backtrack to find the car. Might end up with the car for less money.

turbo owner

Some of you are totally clueless about how the car business works, cars trade hands between dealers all the time without title in hand. Dealers use reassignments on the title and rarely title it in their own name, like when the title is full.

Let me give an example

A car is a new car traded in on Friday, it's wholesaled to a dealer who works all weekend long so it's ready to go to an auction the following week. It goes on say Tuesday and sells to another dealer and he takes it home to his lot and puts it up for sale. That weekend he sells it.

Now lets say the car has a lein and has to be paid off before the title can be released by the bank and this title is at the main bank 4 states away, you really think the check will travel 4 states away, be processed by the lien holding bank and returned to the new car dealer so he can get it to the wholesaler that bought it so he can get it to auction so they can process the paperwork for the purchasing dealer that may have traveled several hundred mile to attend the auction and get it all done in just 5 business days.

You just don't know how the car business works and make disparaging comments about people just trying to make a living

Some of you should educate yourselves, you wouldn't look so clueless to those of us who aren't

TT Surgeon

^true, otherwise one would see every dealer as a previous owner on a carfax.

speednme

I'm sorry but there is "no excuse" for such poor dealings. Retail 101..you sell what is for sale..period. If the dealer was waiting on the title they should have kept the car in a "not for sale state" and only offer the car when they obtain proof that the car was theirs to sell. I don't give a rats a** on the notion that this is how the car business is. It's no wonder why most people I know HATE car buying. The endless crappy car dealings stories just seem to never end.

Can one imagine going into a Bestbuy(electronics store) picking out a tv, handing over the funds for the purchase. Reaching the pick up counter only to be told "sorry the manufacturer called and said they would like their tv back" no would ever go back to that store(while informing others to stay away). If the car was a consigned car one can see this happening but a car that a dealer supposedly owns.....I don't buy it, eat it or accept the excuse "this happens all the time"......COMPLACENCY is a bad thing for business.

turbo owner

Comparing a used car sale to a new TV purchase at Best Buy is completely idiotic. It's a totally different kind of retail business.

Car buying can be a very frustrating endeavor. The customer can make it as hard on themselves as they like. Sometimes car dealers don't like seeing people like you either. But because they are in business to make a living, they deal with everybody.

When I had my retail lot I ran several people off just like you because I would rather not sell a car than have to deal with them. There is no excuse for people like you.

speednme

Comparing a used car sale to a new TV purchase at Best Buy may sound idiotic to you but it is retail no matter how you look at it.

I could give you countless story with bulls**t car salesmen, have tried to pull. Not all are scammers, I've had great dealings with car salesmen as well. There are many "variables" I'm sure many car dealers encounter when obtaining a car but those "variables" should be all sorted out prior to the car hitting the showroom floor. At the very least notify the buyer of any open items that might prevent the sale of a said vehicle PRIOR to agreeing to sell the car. It's called HONESTY. Probably a foriegn word for some car salesmen but believe me it's in the Webster's dictionary..LOOK IT UP.

p.s. "turbo owner" become a Rennlist member then proceed with your defense on shi**y car dealings...

six gun

Compairing a customer for a 87 930 to a "retail lot" customer is like compairing a Ford focus customer to one shopping for a "E class Mercedes one gets the"let me talk to my manager treratment" and the other gets to walk out of the dealership and think about the proposal.

Most of the retail outlets who sell 930's would not accept a deposit on a car that they are not conumate the deal on.

I am sure Turbo Owner is correct about the way some auction houses work but that is no reason to insult the people who don't. (maybe his turbo is a VW)

Merry Christmas to all!!

turbo owner

It's about the people, not the profession. Not all car salesmen are scammers and not all scammers are car salesmen.

There are always variables in business. The last car lot I had was a small lot, about 150 x 300 and would hold 30-40 cars. Now, I used to do all my own details and a lot of my own repairs and had vendors that would come and call on me at my lot to work on my cars.

Are you trying to tell me that I shouldn't have my cars at my lot until they are completely ready to sell?

I've sold many cars to Mommy & Daddy dragging their little teenager around looking for a cute little sportscar to drive to school. Some of these cars were purchased before I was done getting them ready to sell. When Daddy's cute little daughter says "I want that one", do you really think Daddy's going to let it get away?

Some of these cars I hadn't received the titles on yet. I picked the car up on Friday afternoon after it was traded in and sold it on Saturday before I was ever done getting it ready and the title was still sitting on the title clerks desk at the new car store. The short of it is, I always let the customer get what they wanted. If they wanted to put a deposit on it and let it wait or pay today and drive away.

What really gives you the right to tell other people how they can conduct business?

As far as carrying on any further dialog, I really see no point. I don't have the desire to communicate with someone who has to use profanity in an attempt to get their point across.

Have a nice day

mikey175

Turbo,

You're right. I want to take the dealer at his word and, if he's being straight, there is no fraud here. He didn't enter into an agreement or try to keep my deposit.

There is the question about whether a dealer should begin advertising a car before they know they've got title. A few of the other posters raised this question, and were shot down by those who seem to be in the business of selling cars since this is (or has become) a normal practice. I'd call this an ethical decision. Because this apparently happens, and dealers know this more so than buyers, is it ethical for them to advertise a car for sale before they are 100% certain the car is theirs to advertise? I suffered no loss, other than my time. And of course, this process wasted the dealer's time as well.

I should have the complete picture this week, and promise to post the results. I like your idea of at least gaining the dealer's agreement to help connect the dots back to the original dealer/owner, to take a different shot at ending up with the same car. Thanks!

Mikey

turbo owner

You are correct in saying that comparing a 930 customer to a Ford Focus customer is not the same. But if I go to my local exotic car dealer, would it be unreasonable to expect to see a 930 Turbo?

I have several friends here in town that are in the exotic car business and I used to be many years ago. They have retail lots. They sell Ferraris and Lambos, Porsches, as well as many other high end automobiles. You do tend to draw a different kind of clientele.

As far as insulting people, my initial reply was in response to an insult to a car dealer when you may not really know all of the details of the transaction.

Let me give you an example from a long time ago. Car dealer and friend had a deposit on a Porsche that he had for sale. The title was being FedXed and was out for delivery when the driver was involved in an accident the delivery vehicle and title were destroyed in the ensuing fire. Is that really the car dealers fault?

My Turbo is an 88 911, black in color with less than 60,000 miles. You can go to Pelican and see a picture of it in my garage. I tend to hang out over there because the atmosphere seems friendlier.

Speaking of which, I'm off to Pelican.

speednme

Really? I've been on this forum( as well as Pelican ) for a few years now. IMO both sides have extremely friendly and helpful gearheads.

As you stated in an earlier comment. It's your lot and you can put whatever vehicle/s you choose to sell on your lot but giving FULL DISCLOSURE to a potential buyer is a good business practice( read..ethical )

As far as examples go..I will try to make this short and sweet.

I went into a local dealer a few years ago to purchase a car for work. I met with a salesmen, agreed on a price, negotiated my trade in and we moved forward to the paperwork...so far so good. Recieved the car 6 hours later ( yes waiting ). I left the dealer only to be told I needed to come back for the alarm install..ok no problem..

Next day I left the car for the alarm install. I was called the following day and was told my car was ready..GREAT ( or so I thought ).

When I went to retrieve my car I was told the manager needed to speak to me..sure why not. Well it turns the salesman ( the poor guy who is always so honest..I apologize to all the good salesmen out there in advance ) screwed up the paperwork. Due to his error I was required to hand over another $1.5k to complete the transaction ( huh? the transaction was complete..or so I thought ).

I ask the manager where do we go from here to make everything right ( keep in mind it was their error..wink wink ). He simply said either I leave the money or walk home...I asked for my money back..again I was told to walk home. WELL 10 minutes later the local authorities showed as as I had the manager cowering in a corner( not a pretty sight ). Needless to say all went well after that. The local authorities actually empathized with me. A general manager finally appeared and we reached a resolution.

Was all this neccesary? No...the manager could have simply sat down with me and reach an agreement. Was it a scam..it sure felt like it...oh and the reason the local authorities empathized with me?..this was the second time in a month they recieved a similiar call to the same dealer......ERROR...My A**..oops I meant booty...

turbo owner

You could have sued them if all all the terms were spelled out and contracts signed.

6 hours to complete a car deal, were you the only person there that day?
Paying in cash or waiting for loan approval?

If you had to do a loan app and get approval and you were number 12 on the buyer list, yea 6 hours is not bad.

Go in knowing what you are there to buy and carrying cash, the process is speeded up alot.

If you go to a new car store and you don't like their business model, find another store to shop at. A lot of new car stores use the turnover model, personally I think it sucks.

That's where some young kid meets you on the lot and by the time you are done you have talked to 10 different people and don't really know any of them. It's the same place that you go back to a few weeks later to see your salesman and he is no longer there.

Find a dealer that has salesman of the month plaques on the walls and the salemen who's names are on these awards still work there several years later, shop there.

These business opperators rely on repeat business and run their business in a manor that a customer wants to come back.

The turnover method of opperation assumes you are a 1 trip buyer and may never be seen again, big city stores tend to be run this way. Owners that have multiple stores do this as well. If you live in an area that one family owns the Ford, Chevy, GMC, KIA, Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep, etc. you should probably expect to be treated like another piece of meat in the store.

An operation that only has one or two franchises is probably more likely to have a family oriented type of operation and you will likely have a better buying experience there.

Just my 2 cents and 30 years of experience worth.

speednme

yes 6 hours for paperwork/approval..no big deal ( I have learned )

One thing for sure, you are correct on the big dealers...most treat people like a piece of meat. I've had good experiences from a mom/pop type of dealer..

Hey "turbo owner" take no offense on the replys..my views are as a consumer who believes in a good, honest and fair transaction. Unfortunately some of us have been burned..so when I see a post like this the old scars begin to swell..lol

Have a safe and Happy Holidays

Turbo1987

Look guys, referring to car dealers and car salesmen right down there with politicians is sometimes warranted. But, IMO you are confusing intentional misrepresentation or manipulation with a situation the dealer had no control over.

He bought the car in good faith, probably has been doing business with the auction house for some time and probably many cars. It is unrealistic for any of you to expect that dealer to hide the car or walk away from a sale because of the way the business works.

At one time in Houston, I floor-planned 3 wholesalers who bought cars all day long. They bought cars with drafts and when the seller sent the draft to my bank along with the title, my bank paid the draft and at that point, I technically owned the car. But, the wholesalers had buyers roaming the lot all day long and the car was often sold within a day or two of arriving at the lot, sometimes within the hour. Most of our buyers were out of Kentucky. More often than not, the cars were on a transport to Kentucky before I ever paid for the car because paperwork had not yet arrived at my bank.

The Kentucky guys gave me a draft and when I got the title, my bank sent their draft to their Kentucky bank. It would not be unusual for them to have sold the car before I ever paid for it. But, in all my years of clearing drafts for these guys, the paperwork always followed and eventually the title caught up to the car.

So, those of you who believe this process is unethical...excuse me...you just don't understand the business. And if you think I would have sat on all that inventory (200 plus cars) while all the paperwork was in place and passed up buyers who we had experience with and always honored their drafts when I got the paper to them...then you just don't understand business.

The business of dealers buying from each other is built on trust. You may not like the retail games that are played...but that is not the part of the transaction that messed up Mikey's deal. What happened here is very unusual and nobody is going to change the way the car business works because this happens occasionally, especially since thousands of cars are sold this way every day.

So you critics need to relax and try to understand the business rather than pontificate.

I hope this is helpful in understanding THAT side of the car business.

speednme

For those in the business, thank you for giving us some background on the ins and outs of car wholesaling.

IMO a bit more of information to the buyer at the point of negotiations would have been warranted. So if things didn't work out, the buyer would have left with no doubts on the transaction....thats all.

When I first saw my 930 it was on the dealers site for sale. I called and was told that although the car was for sale they had not obtain the title( as the owner was still deciding on whether he wanted to sell the car ). I was told to keep checking back. Well about a month and a half later the car was officially for sale. I took a trip, checked out the car. Was shown the service record including the title( if anyone doubts my story feel free to call GR Autogallery in Grand Rapids Michigan..ask for Chris or Jeff ) and a deal was met.

I work in the manufacture of ZDDP ( the main ingredient in Brad Penn, Valvoline VR1 among others ). If someones car engine was damaged due to the wrong composition of ZDDP in an oil they used in their vehicle. Most would not be inclined to begin to understand how something like that could happen. They would be looking for some type of compensation to repair their vehicle. They could care less about chemical makeup/reactions and what type of problems one can encounter in this type of business.

Stuff happens, things don't always go as plan. I understand that but communication goes a long way.

On this subject I think it is best to agree to disagree...