Twin plug on efi -- options?
09-22-2006, 11:42 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Yep, Chris at Turbokraft has a plug n play setup for 930's, Carreras, etc. The AEM is definitely one of the more advanced EMS' out there. I'm not quite sure how it compares to something like Autronic, however it seems to be quite a bit more advanced then say a Tec3. AEM also has it's on CDI setup if you want to eliminate your distributor. I haven't heard of anyone yet that is running an AEM on a 911, however there is a huge following with this EMS in other car circles, so support is out there. I'm leaning the AEM route as it seems like the best deal short of running a Motec. That plus I have an AEM master tuner here in the city I live. 
If the AEM sounds like an option to anyone, I'd highly recommend contacting Chris @ Turbokraft. I don't work for him or anything, though out of all the retailers I've ever talked to or dealt with he has been extremely helpful and showed a great capacity for putting up with questions from a layman.
If the AEM sounds like an option to anyone, I'd highly recommend contacting Chris @ Turbokraft. I don't work for him or anything, though out of all the retailers I've ever talked to or dealt with he has been extremely helpful and showed a great capacity for putting up with questions from a layman.
09-24-2006, 01:40 PM
#17
Rennlist Lifetime Member
I will be the first to admit that there have been teething issues with he SM4. I experienced almost all of them. The good news is all the constant work has certainly paid off. The SM4 in the last month has seen a host of revisions. One of the reason I like Autronic is the very reason Geoffrey turned me on to the SMC, the software and the back end work the software does and the options the units have. The SM4 has a lot more to offer than the SMC. The two units offer more options then the next closest thing in the market for a ¼ of the price. I think every system has quirks. No question about it. Find a system that your tuner knows and can use. You can have the best system in the world and if he doesn't know it then you are sunk. A general understanding and background building and installing EFI is a must. If a problem comes up you have to know how to deal with it and more importantly have the equipment to fix it or even read it. This doesn’t mean if you have a volt meter you are covered. You are not.
In the last couple of months the SM4 has received a new shielded unit that has eliminated the sync error. It was something that was unknown and was recently discovered. They also have revised the chip set. They continue to improve the front end user software as well.
Most failures on any EFI system are in the wiring. Spend the money to do the harness correctly. That means quality Mil-spec connectors and the proper crimper. Yea, I know it is 300.00 but if you have issues you will wish you spent the 300.00 to do it right and once.
In the last couple of months the SM4 has received a new shielded unit that has eliminated the sync error. It was something that was unknown and was recently discovered. They also have revised the chip set. They continue to improve the front end user software as well.
Most failures on any EFI system are in the wiring. Spend the money to do the harness correctly. That means quality Mil-spec connectors and the proper crimper. Yea, I know it is 300.00 but if you have issues you will wish you spent the 300.00 to do it right and once.
09-24-2006, 03:11 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by PorschePhD
I will be the first to admit that there have been teething issues with he SM4. I experienced almost all of them. The good news is all the constant work has certainly paid off. The SM4 in the last month has seen a host of revisions. One of the reason I like Autronic is the very reason Geoffrey turned me on to the SMC, the software and the back end work the software does and the options the units have. The SM4 has a lot more to offer than the SMC. The two units offer more options then the next closest thing in the market for a ¼ of the price. I think every system has quirks. No question about it. Find a system that your tuner knows and can use. You can have the best system in the world and if he doesn't know it then you are sunk. A general understanding and background building and installing EFI is a must. If a problem comes up you have to know how to deal with it and more importantly have the equipment to fix it or even read it. This doesn’t mean if you have a volt meter you are covered. You are not.
In the last couple of months the SM4 has received a new shielded unit that has eliminated the sync error. It was something that was unknown and was recently discovered. They also have revised the chip set. They continue to improve the front end user software as well.
Most failures on any EFI system are in the wiring. Spend the money to do the harness correctly. That means quality Mil-spec connectors and the proper crimper. Yea, I know it is 300.00 but if you have issues you will wish you spent the 300.00 to do it right and once.
In the last couple of months the SM4 has received a new shielded unit that has eliminated the sync error. It was something that was unknown and was recently discovered. They also have revised the chip set. They continue to improve the front end user software as well.
Most failures on any EFI system are in the wiring. Spend the money to do the harness correctly. That means quality Mil-spec connectors and the proper crimper. Yea, I know it is 300.00 but if you have issues you will wish you spent the 300.00 to do it right and once.
When will one of your 930/965 EFI projects be completed and can we see Dyno results from before and after with A/F ratios?
ps. Have you considered experimenting with AEM or HALTECH EFI?
Last edited by marcvip; 09-24-2006 at 03:33 PM.
09-24-2006, 04:51 PM
#19
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Geoffrey and Stephen, once again, thank you for your contributions to this board.
I have been seriously considering purchase of the sm4. The autronic dealer I have been talking to never mentioned any teething problems, perhaps I hope, due to these recent revisions Stephen mentions.
As a graduate of efi101/advanced classes the autronic system was really touted as Motec for less. My comments concerning Richard Aubert and the fuel algorithm come straight from my class notes but 20yrs and basment operation certainly puts a different perspective on things. In this day of telecommuting though it makes it much tougher to detemine their relevance. I would like to think that Richard has a really nice basement.
I'm more confused as to which way to proceed than I was before I started researching
Geoffrey, I don't remember what ecu you use on your '89? I do seem to remember the ignition system used gm coil packs? What ever you used worked to your satisfaction it seems.
Also, I'm assuming that two different coil packs are providing the two sparks for the cylinder on compression? If so it was mentioned that if one bank/coil went out that there was the possibility of not knowing that your actually running single plug. Is this a relevant fear, or can you feel the difference. It seems from my research that in an inductive waste fire system it is not advised to run each cylinder from the same coilpack due to the weaker strength of the spark due to the cylinder pressures, though this may be dependant on the coil quality itself. The advantage to this strategy would be that if one coil died, you would know. I wonder if a cdi unit firing one dual post coil for each cylinder would be the best system. AEM has an eight channel CDI system($500/no coils included) with dual dump caps that looks like it would fit the bill.
I have been seriously considering purchase of the sm4. The autronic dealer I have been talking to never mentioned any teething problems, perhaps I hope, due to these recent revisions Stephen mentions.
As a graduate of efi101/advanced classes the autronic system was really touted as Motec for less. My comments concerning Richard Aubert and the fuel algorithm come straight from my class notes but 20yrs and basment operation certainly puts a different perspective on things. In this day of telecommuting though it makes it much tougher to detemine their relevance. I would like to think that Richard has a really nice basement.
I'm more confused as to which way to proceed than I was before I started researching
Geoffrey, I don't remember what ecu you use on your '89? I do seem to remember the ignition system used gm coil packs? What ever you used worked to your satisfaction it seems.
Also, I'm assuming that two different coil packs are providing the two sparks for the cylinder on compression? If so it was mentioned that if one bank/coil went out that there was the possibility of not knowing that your actually running single plug. Is this a relevant fear, or can you feel the difference. It seems from my research that in an inductive waste fire system it is not advised to run each cylinder from the same coilpack due to the weaker strength of the spark due to the cylinder pressures, though this may be dependant on the coil quality itself. The advantage to this strategy would be that if one coil died, you would know. I wonder if a cdi unit firing one dual post coil for each cylinder would be the best system. AEM has an eight channel CDI system($500/no coils included) with dual dump caps that looks like it would fit the bill.
09-24-2006, 05:02 PM
#20
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Originally Posted by marcvip
Stephen,
When will one of your 930/965 EFI projects be completed and can we see Dyno results from before and after with A/F ratios?
ps. Have you considered experimenting with AEM or HALTECH EFI?
When will one of your 930/965 EFI projects be completed and can we see Dyno results from before and after with A/F ratios?
ps. Have you considered experimenting with AEM or HALTECH EFI?
There are several running around here on the board. Scott was the most recent to be completed. Chet is next. There are currently four we have in production at the moment.
I don't care for Haltech and AEM is ok, but goes back to use one or two good units and stick with that. I like Autronics stuff. I like the software. Our kits are designed around using this. Not to mention I build all the harnesses and again all the stuff is geared towards this. So when something goes wrong I can nail it down quickly. At the moment it takes me about 4 hours to tune these systems.
09-24-2006, 05:06 PM
#21
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Mike,
Top give you an idea what we typically use I like the M&W stuff. Both the expander and coil packs. When you run a twin plug set up you do not fire 1 coil on the same cylinder. You will cross the firing pattern or use wasted spark unless running sequential ignition. So coil one would fire 1 intake and 4 intake. You typically use two pole coils. The order continues down the line with 3 firing the intake and 3 firing the exhaust. All twin pole with wasted spark.
Top give you an idea what we typically use I like the M&W stuff. Both the expander and coil packs. When you run a twin plug set up you do not fire 1 coil on the same cylinder. You will cross the firing pattern or use wasted spark unless running sequential ignition. So coil one would fire 1 intake and 4 intake. You typically use two pole coils. The order continues down the line with 3 firing the intake and 3 firing the exhaust. All twin pole with wasted spark.
09-24-2006, 05:23 PM
#22
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SoCal Mike I am jumping in at the deep end here- so forgive me if I am out of my depth- I am utilizing the M&W double ended coilpack with the Motec M600 and M&W/Motec CDI, pricier than some other options but recommended by both Stephen and Geoffrey. There are many sites on the web for Aussies and Britons who have been using Motec, AEM, DTA and Autronic and while the consensus is "if you can, spring for the Motec", DTA enjoyed high praise as well but as Stephen stated, the system is only as good as the tuner and how well he knows the EMS. I know that was glib but I hope it helps.
09-24-2006, 08:51 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Mike, I started with MoTeC in my 89 which had an M48Pro and was run for the full 8 years I had the car. I have never had a MoTeC ECU go bad or software with bugs other than the beta stuff I was using on my new engine and that was limited to some pretty sophisticated CAN communications between the ECU and ADL. I'd be surprised if Ben suggested that Autronic was MoTeC for less, it isn't and never will be, especially with the non waterproof case which looks like it was built in high school shop class and software that cannot communicate outside of the ECU box itself. You have to remember EFI University's mission which is to teach people about engine management and how the tuning process works, not whether to buy brand A or brand B. In fact, most of the major ECU manufacturers have supplied an ECU for free for the demo cars. After working with Haltech AU, I think they will have some good offerings that will be price/performance better than the Autronic SM4 shortly.
Its true that I suggested the Autronic SMC ECU might be a reasonable possibility for Stephen's EFI kit but at the time the thought was that it would be a user installable and/or programmable kit and since the user interface is simple it would be a good solution for beginner shops. I did not specify an SM4 because of the problems I have had working the bugs out of a product that was released prematurely. You'd see the issues show up when you drive the car and it just shuts off on you. Other problems are the sync signal which is noisy and gets triggered improperly at times which you can see on an oscilloscope. It also does not allow for the use of advanced small nice sensors but rather big old clunky hall sensors. Further, the resolution of the crank position is limited to one tooth per cylinder. If the trigger wheel has more teeth than that, they are simply ignored by the ECU, which in the case of the 911 is every 120 crank degrees. The resolution is not nearly as good as MoTeC's flexible triggering strategies which can use almost any trigger including all of the OEM's special modes. I use 60-2 which gives you 6 degrees of resolution...and I could go on...I'd never use it myself due to the inconsistency you get from the lack of ability to properly control intake air temp compensation which is so critical on an air cooled 911, espeically a turbo 911 where the cylinder head temperatures affect the AFR consistency to a large degree. This is also why I always use a cylinder head temp sensor as an input to the MoTeC ECU and explains why it is so reliable and has consistent AFRs.
Its true that I suggested the Autronic SMC ECU might be a reasonable possibility for Stephen's EFI kit but at the time the thought was that it would be a user installable and/or programmable kit and since the user interface is simple it would be a good solution for beginner shops. I did not specify an SM4 because of the problems I have had working the bugs out of a product that was released prematurely. You'd see the issues show up when you drive the car and it just shuts off on you. Other problems are the sync signal which is noisy and gets triggered improperly at times which you can see on an oscilloscope. It also does not allow for the use of advanced small nice sensors but rather big old clunky hall sensors. Further, the resolution of the crank position is limited to one tooth per cylinder. If the trigger wheel has more teeth than that, they are simply ignored by the ECU, which in the case of the 911 is every 120 crank degrees. The resolution is not nearly as good as MoTeC's flexible triggering strategies which can use almost any trigger including all of the OEM's special modes. I use 60-2 which gives you 6 degrees of resolution...and I could go on...I'd never use it myself due to the inconsistency you get from the lack of ability to properly control intake air temp compensation which is so critical on an air cooled 911, espeically a turbo 911 where the cylinder head temperatures affect the AFR consistency to a large degree. This is also why I always use a cylinder head temp sensor as an input to the MoTeC ECU and explains why it is so reliable and has consistent AFRs.
Last edited by Geoffrey; 09-24-2006 at 09:38 PM.
09-24-2006, 09:25 PM
#24
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Ha, I don't think any system is suitable for a beginner shop or self install anymore. To many things at risk and to many things needed to properly install and tune any EFI conversion. I use to think otherwise and have since back tracked. This is one theory I was wrong with.
As far as some as the recent issues, the noise has been removed with new units. Geoffrey is right the trigger moved all over. It took a lot of emails and phone calls to get the point across to Autronic but they finally came up with some new revision. They are not the same box they had before and shielded for a small war. Also along with the software and chip change the 60-2 is no longer an issue and will use it. The older units will have to receive a chip change to utilize a 60-2 trigger wheel.
The ATC takes some time to set right. This is why as discussed it is important to find someone that knows the unit they are testing. If you don’t, like anything the result could be expensive and disastrous.
There are a lot of choices out there. Pick what best suits your budget/needs and the tuner you are using
As far as some as the recent issues, the noise has been removed with new units. Geoffrey is right the trigger moved all over. It took a lot of emails and phone calls to get the point across to Autronic but they finally came up with some new revision. They are not the same box they had before and shielded for a small war. Also along with the software and chip change the 60-2 is no longer an issue and will use it. The older units will have to receive a chip change to utilize a 60-2 trigger wheel.
The ATC takes some time to set right. This is why as discussed it is important to find someone that knows the unit they are testing. If you don’t, like anything the result could be expensive and disastrous.
There are a lot of choices out there. Pick what best suits your budget/needs and the tuner you are using
09-25-2006, 12:00 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
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Consider the Link System as well. Competitive cost, straight-forward installation, excellent customer service and results. It's sold by Performance Developments.
09-25-2006, 07:35 PM
#26
"Consider the Link System as well. Competitive cost, straight-forward installation, excellent customer service and results. It's sold by Performance Developments"
I second the above. The customer service is excellent. I know, I have had it. Yes I am a little bias here, I have 2 of these systems on engines currently, but the product and service need to be seroiusly looked at. The system has come along way and when a company like Performance Developments gets behind it, it will become/has become very good.
I hope there is nothing wrong with what appears to be promoting a product or company but when this question is asked so often, I offer up as another system to check out.
This system has become what some of the high end system are, at far lower cost. I like Don suggest you take look at it. It has all the flexibility of the Motec but at a lower cost. What we all want is good control, plenty of features where we do not limit ourselves with "ins and outs", and easy use of software, all at an affordable cost. Its all there. www.linkecu.com. Check it out.
I second the above. The customer service is excellent. I know, I have had it. Yes I am a little bias here, I have 2 of these systems on engines currently, but the product and service need to be seroiusly looked at. The system has come along way and when a company like Performance Developments gets behind it, it will become/has become very good.
I hope there is nothing wrong with what appears to be promoting a product or company but when this question is asked so often, I offer up as another system to check out.
This system has become what some of the high end system are, at far lower cost. I like Don suggest you take look at it. It has all the flexibility of the Motec but at a lower cost. What we all want is good control, plenty of features where we do not limit ourselves with "ins and outs", and easy use of software, all at an affordable cost. Its all there. www.linkecu.com. Check it out.
09-26-2006, 12:43 PM
#28
Nordschleife Master
"It has all the flexibility of the Motec but at a lower cost."
Please recognize that "All" is used loosely here. For the functions that you'd want to use in a street car, there are many, many ECUs that will do the job. Few of them have near as much capability as MoTeC's Mx00 line of ECUs. They probably have "All" of the features of the lower M4/M48 line, but then there is a substantial price difference between the two lines.
This is not to say that Link is a bad ECU choice, it looks like one of the better choices within the price range.
Please recognize that "All" is used loosely here. For the functions that you'd want to use in a street car, there are many, many ECUs that will do the job. Few of them have near as much capability as MoTeC's Mx00 line of ECUs. They probably have "All" of the features of the lower M4/M48 line, but then there is a substantial price difference between the two lines.
This is not to say that Link is a bad ECU choice, it looks like one of the better choices within the price range.
09-26-2006, 02:11 PM
#29
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I will also be going with the link system. I have looked around, and for the money, its the best system out there...IMHO. If I had 8 grand or so to spend..then I may have went with MoTec, but I dont, and never will have that much just to spend on an ECU and related items. So, Link gets my vote. Plus, from what I have heard, Perfomace developments is in CA...so they are Pacific time. If I have a problem, I could reach them up until 9 or possibly 10 at night EST. After that, the main company, Link-electro... I think is in like New Zeland or somewhere like that, so after 9pm, they will be online for support almost until daylight hours.... Thats nice to have if you have support problems. I am a firm believer, that you usually get what you pay for......but sometimes....cheaper is better.
