Richard930

Looking for input on suspension mods.

I was planning on a general freshening of the entire suspension using one of the Elephant Racing packages as they seem to include pretty much everything you could need / want. The car is pretty much stock, 80% road / 20% track use, but I'm willing to sacrifice some road comfort for a tighter handling car as the road use is just for fun anyway. My guess is that after 25 years and 145,000 miles the time has come to do something even if the car feels OK (with perfectly even tire wear).

The packages include replacement bearings and (polybronze) bushings for the entire suspension, as well as new shocks. As you move up the upgrade package food chain, the packages include hollow torsion bars, sway bars, monoballs etc...

Anyone gone for any of these packages, and is it better to approach it this way or just replace the shocks and anything that appears to be wearing out?

Thanks in advance

Peter Carroll/Toronto

I have a similar suspension from SmartRacing. The car is great on the track and is also still quite friendly on the street.

My suspension consists of...
22/30mm solid torsion bars.
Custom track valved Billsteins (F30/R30).
SmartRacing 27/31mm sway bars w/ Wevo sway bar mounts (a must)
Adjustable spring plates
Urethane bushings all around except new rubber ones for the front strut tower and rear inner control arms bearing.
Bump steer kit
Camber truss

Given the extreme suspension the car is still quite pleasant to drive on the street. I think it may be because I stayed away from the solid bushings. You'd never notice any loss of handling on the track. It's fantastic!

Garen

I run a Smart Racing setup as well. Here are the numbers:

22/30 mm Sander hollow T bars
SRP revalved Bilsteins
SRP #23 anti roll bars F & R ( ineed to upgrade these, as I am running the front ones at full stiff)

I am on the fence about the poli-bronze bushings. Too much $$$, and might be to rough for the street.

Definitely take Peter's advice about the wevo rear sway bar mounts. The stock ones will break. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.

Peter, if you don't mind, will you share what camber settings you run F & R? I am debating on getting the camber king strut hats and cross bar, as well as the elephant racing rear camber adjustment tool (I forgot what they call it).

Thanks,

Garen (87 930)

Dknebes

Go to coilovers and get a beter ride and handling.

TrackDays247.com

Nah, coilovers are WAY overrated. No reason a torsion bar car can't virtually equal a 'gotta have it' coil shod trend-mobile.

Have Steve Weiner point you towards a setup such as this:
Elephant racing poly-bronze bushings, full TRG monoballs/strut bearings/strut brace. Sanders tubular T-bars 24/33mm. Custom valved Bilstein struts w/raised spindles, new ball joints and bump steer kit. RSR rear custom valved short body coilover shocks w/150lb Eibach helper coils. TRG sway bars.

Lap times at Laguna Seca 1:33, Sears 1:49, T-hill 1:59, Portland w/chicane 1:22. All times on R compounds.

Dknebes

Ya right, obviously you haven't been in a converted coilover 930 porsche.

TrackDays247.com

Obviously I have. Let's see..........7 years and about 150 track days, on track in a bunch of 911s, 930s, GT3s, and one CGT.

So go for it - describe the intracasies and the fine points of a coilover package vs. a custom package as Steve provided and as referenced above -

Garen

Before this thread turns into an all-out war between torsion bar junkies and coil over addicts, entertain this idea:

Use the T bars and some nice adjustable sways, do the busings of your choice, and get the SmartRacing Fox Shocks, which are adjustable, and are threaded for coil overs, and have adjustable spindle mounts. That way, when you beef up the shock towers, you can run some springs, and reap the rewards of being able to quickly set ride height, change springs, etc etc. You know, for those times you absolutely NEEDED some different springs, since you were about .05 seconds off your money-making weekend at the track. The biggest contributor to the handling will be the shocks, IMHO, so choose wisely.

Seriousely, you can have a sweet ride and an awesome handling car with either approach. Nothing is going to change the fact that to drive an older 911 or 930 fast, you need to work on yourself more so than the car. None of these changes will ever make these cars into 50/50, perfectly balanced cars, nor would they make a hero out of a novice driver. Some swear by coil overs, others keep the torsion bars alive. To each his own, I guess...

VZ935

Coil overs .... 1:48 at Thunderhill through the Eagles nest . What it comes down to is budget and what you want.. you can put together a real nice handling car with TB's . Just check out both upgrades and see what is in your budget and what other upgrades you plan in the future.. bottom line is I think you can be real happy either way.

And if you call the Craig Watkins the owner of Smart Racing ,Johannes van Overnbeeks ex engineer on his Speedvision Porsche, I think will tell you coilovers..
And Kevin Buckler the owner of TRG.. I bought his used coil overs off his track car 12 years ago when he went to a newer coil over .

No need for anyone to get nasty with one another.. this is my opinion and I base it off of what I have learned on the track and from guys I used to co drive with like Buckler and others...10-12 years ago we set ourselves apart on a club level and the differnece was suspension.. way more stuff available now but back then coil overs were a real luxury on a 911 and if you had em.. you were faster, at least I was... oh 1:15 on the old 1.9 mile Thunderhill when everyone was struggling to break 1:20.

Dknebes

Believe me I am not trying to start a war. the statement was that coilovers are way over rated. If you are looking for a better or smoother ride especially through bumpy corners as well gains in handling you can get a good compromise with coilovers. I know you can make TB's work great on the track and ride well on the street but for the money and a weekend job I think coilovers with their ease of adjustment and spring ease of switching springs with different rates is the best way to go. Correct me if I am wrong but to get TB's to handle better on the track you have to go stiffer which gives a harsher ride. I can get a better ride and better handling. I know to get my car to handle real well on the track I would need stiffer springs as well and this could be a problem with the shock towers. My goal was to get a good compromise. I am running a high hp car and wanted to have less squat and coilovers help that as well. While I was at it I changed over to Big Reds which was easy with the parts off. Not a war just my opinion.

jimculp

Does anyone have pictures of a spring perch/shock mount that has been upgraded for coilover use? I'm still not clear what needs to be done to make the front of a 930 ready to use these.

38D

Pros of Coil Overs
- Allow you to go far stiffer then T-bars. A 33mm is only like a 450# spring. I run 700#/900# springs on my C2 Turbo D class racer.
- Easier to setup
- Weigh less than a Tbar setup (not huge savings, but some)

Cons
- Will certainly bump you into PCA GT1 (NASA GTS not impacted). Not sure about other orgs like SCCA/POC/Etc.


For street use, coil overs offer no real advanatge over a well setup Tbar car.

TrackDays247.com

Good point. Which is why I recommeded above when purchasing rear shocks, a coilover rear setup in conjunction with the front and rear torsion bar setup. Keep in mind - with a torsion setup it is almost impossible to go *too* stiff in the rear - there is simply not enough rear spring rate available forthe rear with torsions alone.

My rear setup:

Peter Carroll/Toronto

I think I'm running about 2.5 degrees all around at the moment - with 235/315x18 rubber. That camber seems to work well for me and is not too crazy on the street.

The car is quite fast with torsion bars, but it's not all that easy to drive fast. It has a really good setup using 40 year old technology. It is vintage.

Generally the only cars that pass me are using coilovers. And they pass me big time. So there is no question they are better.

However, coilovers are another level of committment. The shock towers in the 911 were never intended to support the weight of the car. If you want your chassis to last you need a lot of reinforcement and preferrably a cage. So in a race car sure. But mine is a street car.

That's my 2¢
Peter

TrackDays247.com

"Generally the only cars that pass me are using coilovers. And they pass me big time. So there is no question they are better."

Give yourself some credit, Peter. They aren't passing you because they have springs and you don't.
The ONLY car that passed my ol' torsion junker (when driven by the PO) was a Viper Competition Coupe. That's it. No one else, ever.

Honestly, too much kudos are given to "coilovers" and to "adjustable shocks".

Get the proper setup outta the box, and go have fun. You aren't gonna be changing springs and futzing with crap unless you are a race team honcho anyway, so don't pretend you know what to 'adjust', skip the foofy stuff. get the right setup (yup, I did) and go have fun.