Digital WUR?? Stephen & others......what the heck is it?
06-23-2006 | 01:04 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Former Vendor
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,299
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From: Kirkland, WA
Digital WUR?? Stephen & others......what the heck is it?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...r&pagenumber=2
This guy has a Digital WUR - see post highlighs in red.
Stephen......what do you and others know about this?
This guy has a Digital WUR - see post highlighs in red.
Stephen......what do you and others know about this?
06-23-2006 | 10:44 AM
#3
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,261
Likes: 1
From: Cooterville, Carolina
FWIW, Neil Harvey of Performance Developments also has a system that uses a frequency valve that can be tuned via PC. I copied this from an email that he sent me:
"I have a system that controls a Frequency Valve, which in turn adjusts the Fuel pressures, to Richen or Lean the fuel curve, based upon MAP and RPM. It is fully adjustable, tuned via a PC and can data log the A/F as well, thro the PC. I’ll send you info. Something very similar to the Andial system, but fully mappable, just like a full EFI fuel Injector".
"I have a system that controls a Frequency Valve, which in turn adjusts the Fuel pressures, to Richen or Lean the fuel curve, based upon MAP and RPM. It is fully adjustable, tuned via a PC and can data log the A/F as well, thro the PC. I’ll send you info. Something very similar to the Andial system, but fully mappable, just like a full EFI fuel Injector".
06-23-2006 | 12:24 PM
#6
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Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Kansas City
You are mapping the control line of the WUR with an inline injector (frequency valve) and doing it based on kPA/RPM. The end result is you can smooth out your CIS map and rid the typical CIS dump through the midrange and still add enrichment on the top end. I needs to be done on the dyno to be done correctly.
You can use an AIC like from HKS or any unit that will control a duty cycle and map based on the above. Keep in mind that the control pressure will increase or decrease AFRs. The lower the control pressure the richer the system gets, the higher the pressure the leaner the system gets.
The cost to do some of these is not cheap. In most cases you are better off saving and switching to EFI. No amount of mods will ever take the place of an EFI conversion. It can get better, but it still is not the same.
You can use an AIC like from HKS or any unit that will control a duty cycle and map based on the above. Keep in mind that the control pressure will increase or decrease AFRs. The lower the control pressure the richer the system gets, the higher the pressure the leaner the system gets.
The cost to do some of these is not cheap. In most cases you are better off saving and switching to EFI. No amount of mods will ever take the place of an EFI conversion. It can get better, but it still is not the same.
06-23-2006 | 05:29 PM
#7
4th Gear
Joined: May 2005
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DigiWUR a good value???
This system that is being spoken of is installed on my car, a '74 911 with a 3 liter turbo engine. My experience so far with this system is that it is FULLY mappable and adjustable (like EFI) from the cockpit with any Palm O/S based hand held. Stephen mentioned that dyno tuning is essential and I agree 100%. However, once your dyno tuning is complete you will have the data to be able to make adjustments as you see fit. With my car we were able to develop 3-4 suitable "profiles", which are now in the memory banks of the system.
The tunability is such that we were able to dial in EXACTLY 12.3 to 1 A/F at WOT and full boost at 5800RPM. I am really not sure what more I could ask for in a system that in it's entirety is in the HUNDREDS of $ not multiple THOUSANDS of $. My car also now starts and idles almost as well as a brand new 997(except for the much louder exhaust note!!) partially because the system senses the oil temp. and makes the required adjustments!! We are just scratching the surface on the capabilities of this system and more is to come including integrated Lambda control and Boost control. Chris is very confident that with the right turbo installed we will be making 400+ RWHP (in a car that weighs 2285 wet) with zero concerns over lack of fuel or lean A/F numbers, all of this from a 3 liter motor. Suffice to say, I AM STOKED.
It really needs to be mentioned that 4 months ago I did not know Chris Carroll at TurboKraft. I was just a Porsche enthusiast scratching my head over the difficulties of making RELIABLE HP with a turbo 911 motor and struggling with the challenges of the CIS system and the WUR in particular. I think everyone, including the other tuners on this forum are going to be blown away when they call Chris and get a quote for his DigiWUR and a complete DYNO tuning session. TurboKraft-Phoenix, AZ 602-481-0264.
Bryan Beaumont
The tunability is such that we were able to dial in EXACTLY 12.3 to 1 A/F at WOT and full boost at 5800RPM. I am really not sure what more I could ask for in a system that in it's entirety is in the HUNDREDS of $ not multiple THOUSANDS of $. My car also now starts and idles almost as well as a brand new 997(except for the much louder exhaust note!!) partially because the system senses the oil temp. and makes the required adjustments!! We are just scratching the surface on the capabilities of this system and more is to come including integrated Lambda control and Boost control. Chris is very confident that with the right turbo installed we will be making 400+ RWHP (in a car that weighs 2285 wet) with zero concerns over lack of fuel or lean A/F numbers, all of this from a 3 liter motor. Suffice to say, I AM STOKED.
It really needs to be mentioned that 4 months ago I did not know Chris Carroll at TurboKraft. I was just a Porsche enthusiast scratching my head over the difficulties of making RELIABLE HP with a turbo 911 motor and struggling with the challenges of the CIS system and the WUR in particular. I think everyone, including the other tuners on this forum are going to be blown away when they call Chris and get a quote for his DigiWUR and a complete DYNO tuning session. TurboKraft-Phoenix, AZ 602-481-0264.
Bryan Beaumont
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06-23-2006 | 11:23 PM
#8
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,647
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From: Elk Grove, California
Based upon a post I saw here on Rennlist yesterday, I just talked to Chris at TurboKraft this afternoon. They are gearing up production as we speak, and he said they should have a production model of their WUR solution to distribute in about six weeks. I put my name on a notification list so that when it's available, he's going to notify me.
Chuck
Chuck
06-24-2006 | 12:04 AM
#9
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From: Near Atlanta, Ga. Peachtree City
Chuck,
Please keep us posted on the development and installation of this new device. I would love to be offered some control over A/F at WOT without the cost of EFI. I talked to Stephen at AI and he was very informative about his EFI system but it cost a helluva lot. I think there is a huge market for those of us who want to improve our cars performance but do not want to get into the cost or complexity of tuning and maintaining an EFI sys.
Rudy
Please keep us posted on the development and installation of this new device. I would love to be offered some control over A/F at WOT without the cost of EFI. I talked to Stephen at AI and he was very informative about his EFI system but it cost a helluva lot. I think there is a huge market for those of us who want to improve our cars performance but do not want to get into the cost or complexity of tuning and maintaining an EFI sys.
Rudy
06-24-2006 | 12:36 AM
#10
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,647
Likes: 2
From: Elk Grove, California
Rudy:
Actually today I was bitching to Alex at Sharkwerks about the WUR on the older cars and asked him what I could do to enhance it....he said..."Invest $8K in a complete EFI system". Whereas I know he was kidding around, the costs of trying to implement a better and more stable methodology is substantial. I will definitely stay in touch with Chris at TurboKraft and pass on information to you folks here at Rennlist. Although I don't want to downstage or mis-speak Chris, I did ask him what sort of pricing he was going to consider for his digital WUR solution and he said he was "looking at a target pricing of something under $650". Please don't take this as gospel because it's really up to Chris as owner/designer to post his own pricing....but to give you folks a ballpark figure, that's what we're probably looking at.
Chris also emailed me and advised as follows: I am taking the liberty of passing the information on to you based upon his comment that he is disseminating the information to folks who inquire........
"Hi Chuck,
Thank you for your email.
TurboKraft's Digital Warm-Up Regulator (WUR) is applicable to all 911 Turbos from 1975-94 with CIS fuel injection. It is suitable for an all-stock original or the most heavily modified Turbo engine. The problem you're describing with your 1987 Slantnose is very typical for a WUR.
Here's a blurb we're currently sending out to interested parties:
TurboKraft's Digital Warm-Up Regulator (WUR) is a replacement for the original Bosch mechanical WUR. Instead of relying on bimetallic springs and diaphragms to manipulate the engine control fuel pressure -- and thus fuel mixture -- throughout the rpm band, this new unit uses a digitally controlled frequency valve to control the fuel mixture under all conditions: start up, idle, acceleration, and load (boost). A MAP sensor is used the provide an accurate engine load input, and the unit receives oil temperature to adjust for cold start situations.
The DigiWUR is also programmable via the infrared port of a Palm OS-based PDA, so you can fine-tune the fuel mixture to your specific engine's
requirements. A base program is pre-installed in the DigiWUR.
TurboKraft's DigiWUR is an economical replacement for the original WUR. Many versions of the WUR are no longer supported by Bosch, either new or through their rebuild program. Some are simply outrageously expensive, like the 1991-94 C2 Turbo WURs at a MSRP of $1,469.09!
Future upgrades include integrated wideband O2 (Lambda) control, integrated boost mapping, ignition control (mapping), and programmable outputs to control other features (water injection, etc.) -- simple, programmable CIS Management!
A compatible PDA can be purchased <$100, such as the Palm Zire 22 or Zire 30. The idea was to make the tuning tool really simple, inexpensive and portable, not as expensive and complicated as a notebook computer.
The photo is of a pre-production unit, but the final design is very similar. It will have an aluminum cover, and the overall footprint is identical to that of the original WUR. It bolts into the original 2 manifold mounting points. The electronic parts are very robust, the valve has an expected life rating of over 100,000 hours.
Bryan's 1974 "RS Turbo" is a perfect example of why we're developing the DigiWUR. It's got a 3.0L Turbo engine, twin plug, 7.5:1 compression, GHL headers, a free flowing muffler and a K27 turbocharger. The fuel curve of the original WUR was wholly inadequate for the engine. In dyno testing, the engine was able to produce 300hp/245tq at the wheels at 16.5psi but running as lean as 12.8:1 air:fuel. There was no more adjustment left in the original CIS system to add more fuel without hacking up the original WUR and gambling on that working -- and any error would be serious since that WUR is no longer available from Porsche or Bosch. To get all the fuel we could in the upper rpms, the resulting air:fuel ratio (AFR) at idle was 12.2:1 and the car only idled smoothly at 1100-1200rpm. Acceleration from idle resulted in the car running as lean as 14.5 (stoichiometric) up to about 4,000rpm while the engine would make as much as 12.5psi -- a lethal situation for the engine, and very poor drivability.
TurboKraft built a Bryan large intercooler for the engine and started tuning it on the dyno, readjusting the timing and adding more fuel where necessary. The engine now makes a healthy 340hp/310tq at only 15psi and at a safer 12.3:1 AFR at peak rpm & boost. We could tune the idle AFR down to 14.2, independent of the cruise mixture and the load (boost) enrichment. As the engine accelerates from idle and builds boost, the mixture gradually enriches, never running lean. The resulting power, torque, and drivability was something that couldn't be attained with the standard Bosch components.
The target price point of the Digital Warm-Up Regulator is below the price of a new Bosch "Euro" 1978-85 WUR." (I believe this is what Chris referred to as a target price of coming in under $650)
If any of this information is redundant, I apologize in advance. You can also do a Google search on TurboKraft Phoenix Arizona and get their website and contact Chris directly. I would encourage any interested parties to contact Chris and put your name on the notify list just to ensure that you are appropriately notified and don't miss the information when I post it. Hopefully, the TurbKraft solution will provide all of us with something a little more reliable and stable....and by that I am not knocking Porsche's engineering BUT....there's always the potential for a better mousetrap and hopefully Chris has come up with it....and NO...I am in no way affiliated...just another Rennlister.
Regards....Chuck
Actually today I was bitching to Alex at Sharkwerks about the WUR on the older cars and asked him what I could do to enhance it....he said..."Invest $8K in a complete EFI system". Whereas I know he was kidding around, the costs of trying to implement a better and more stable methodology is substantial. I will definitely stay in touch with Chris at TurboKraft and pass on information to you folks here at Rennlist. Although I don't want to downstage or mis-speak Chris, I did ask him what sort of pricing he was going to consider for his digital WUR solution and he said he was "looking at a target pricing of something under $650". Please don't take this as gospel because it's really up to Chris as owner/designer to post his own pricing....but to give you folks a ballpark figure, that's what we're probably looking at.
Chris also emailed me and advised as follows: I am taking the liberty of passing the information on to you based upon his comment that he is disseminating the information to folks who inquire........
"Hi Chuck,
Thank you for your email.
TurboKraft's Digital Warm-Up Regulator (WUR) is applicable to all 911 Turbos from 1975-94 with CIS fuel injection. It is suitable for an all-stock original or the most heavily modified Turbo engine. The problem you're describing with your 1987 Slantnose is very typical for a WUR.
Here's a blurb we're currently sending out to interested parties:
TurboKraft's Digital Warm-Up Regulator (WUR) is a replacement for the original Bosch mechanical WUR. Instead of relying on bimetallic springs and diaphragms to manipulate the engine control fuel pressure -- and thus fuel mixture -- throughout the rpm band, this new unit uses a digitally controlled frequency valve to control the fuel mixture under all conditions: start up, idle, acceleration, and load (boost). A MAP sensor is used the provide an accurate engine load input, and the unit receives oil temperature to adjust for cold start situations.
The DigiWUR is also programmable via the infrared port of a Palm OS-based PDA, so you can fine-tune the fuel mixture to your specific engine's
requirements. A base program is pre-installed in the DigiWUR.
TurboKraft's DigiWUR is an economical replacement for the original WUR. Many versions of the WUR are no longer supported by Bosch, either new or through their rebuild program. Some are simply outrageously expensive, like the 1991-94 C2 Turbo WURs at a MSRP of $1,469.09!
Future upgrades include integrated wideband O2 (Lambda) control, integrated boost mapping, ignition control (mapping), and programmable outputs to control other features (water injection, etc.) -- simple, programmable CIS Management!
A compatible PDA can be purchased <$100, such as the Palm Zire 22 or Zire 30. The idea was to make the tuning tool really simple, inexpensive and portable, not as expensive and complicated as a notebook computer.
The photo is of a pre-production unit, but the final design is very similar. It will have an aluminum cover, and the overall footprint is identical to that of the original WUR. It bolts into the original 2 manifold mounting points. The electronic parts are very robust, the valve has an expected life rating of over 100,000 hours.
Bryan's 1974 "RS Turbo" is a perfect example of why we're developing the DigiWUR. It's got a 3.0L Turbo engine, twin plug, 7.5:1 compression, GHL headers, a free flowing muffler and a K27 turbocharger. The fuel curve of the original WUR was wholly inadequate for the engine. In dyno testing, the engine was able to produce 300hp/245tq at the wheels at 16.5psi but running as lean as 12.8:1 air:fuel. There was no more adjustment left in the original CIS system to add more fuel without hacking up the original WUR and gambling on that working -- and any error would be serious since that WUR is no longer available from Porsche or Bosch. To get all the fuel we could in the upper rpms, the resulting air:fuel ratio (AFR) at idle was 12.2:1 and the car only idled smoothly at 1100-1200rpm. Acceleration from idle resulted in the car running as lean as 14.5 (stoichiometric) up to about 4,000rpm while the engine would make as much as 12.5psi -- a lethal situation for the engine, and very poor drivability.
TurboKraft built a Bryan large intercooler for the engine and started tuning it on the dyno, readjusting the timing and adding more fuel where necessary. The engine now makes a healthy 340hp/310tq at only 15psi and at a safer 12.3:1 AFR at peak rpm & boost. We could tune the idle AFR down to 14.2, independent of the cruise mixture and the load (boost) enrichment. As the engine accelerates from idle and builds boost, the mixture gradually enriches, never running lean. The resulting power, torque, and drivability was something that couldn't be attained with the standard Bosch components.
The target price point of the Digital Warm-Up Regulator is below the price of a new Bosch "Euro" 1978-85 WUR." (I believe this is what Chris referred to as a target price of coming in under $650)
If any of this information is redundant, I apologize in advance. You can also do a Google search on TurboKraft Phoenix Arizona and get their website and contact Chris directly. I would encourage any interested parties to contact Chris and put your name on the notify list just to ensure that you are appropriately notified and don't miss the information when I post it. Hopefully, the TurbKraft solution will provide all of us with something a little more reliable and stable....and by that I am not knocking Porsche's engineering BUT....there's always the potential for a better mousetrap and hopefully Chris has come up with it....and NO...I am in no way affiliated...just another Rennlister.
Regards....Chuck
06-24-2006 | 04:51 PM
#12
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,261
Likes: 1
From: Cooterville, Carolina
Originally Posted by 911rudy
Chuck,
Please keep us posted on the development and installation of this new device. I would love to be offered some control over A/F at WOT without the cost of EFI. I talked to Stephen at AI and he was very informative about his EFI system but it cost a helluva lot. I think there is a huge market for those of us who want to improve our cars performance but do not want to get into the cost or complexity of tuning and maintaining an EFI sys.
Rudy
Please keep us posted on the development and installation of this new device. I would love to be offered some control over A/F at WOT without the cost of EFI. I talked to Stephen at AI and he was very informative about his EFI system but it cost a helluva lot. I think there is a huge market for those of us who want to improve our cars performance but do not want to get into the cost or complexity of tuning and maintaining an EFI sys.
Rudy
06-25-2006 | 09:19 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,688
Likes: 849
From: About to pass you...
Originally Posted by SoFast
If this is true, that would be awesome. The best HP gains are those that are a good relative ratio of cost to horsepower. EFI is not one of those!
