m42racer

I think that an electronic Fuel system if well tuned and having all the necessary controls will always out perform any mechanical setup. But those who do not wish to convert could now have a better system if smoe electronics was added to the control of the fuel pressures.

The cost of conversion is quite high when you consider all of the parts required. Most of these engines just need more fuel to keep the A/F under control at the higher boost levels. The engines are typically basic and its accepted that the drivability is waht it is. To be able to control the fuel curve safely, to have only when you want it and not when you do not need it, would be a good addition to the options available.

So my question is this. If there was to be a system made that would do this and be triggered from factory Distributor or similar with very little wiring for the DIY, control the fuel pressure as a function of RPM v MAP, control the Ignition timing (retard) RPM v MAP, and include electronic boost control also as a function of RPM, with a user selectable boost v TPS function for highway driving, and be way less $ than the conversion to EFI, would this be of interest to any. Add this to the mod that Stephen does to the Fuel head and you have yourself a really good mechanical system for the 930.

I will ask if something like this could be made and how much. The interest would give some idea if it would be worth doing. If you pay for the additional controller from Andial, buy some sort of Ignition system like the Electromotive and fit eveything that needs to be fitted, and then buy and add a Boost controller, what would you pay for everything. If something had all three included and cost less than $ 1000.00, would this be interesting?

JoeMag

The euro fuel head is different than the US one, correct? Also, the fuel lines to the injectors, are they larger on the euro? Someone indicated the '79's and Euro were larger, but I previously read from other posts a while ago, that the '79 were the largest.

Stephen --- do your mods take the US fuel head up to or beyond the Euro one?

NSXTC

If you had the choice of going with the Andial FEC or IA Fuel Head Mod, which route would you go and why?

911rudy

I saw a mod on another forum where the owner used an injector plumbed into the intake just before the IC and it was triggered from the boost pressure. All it did was to inject fuel when the boost reached a certain level. It did not look complicated and it did not look expensive. Why don't we hear more about simple AFR solutions like this? Does anyone know why this won't work?
Rudy

Kevin

The reason why it doesn't work is because you can't control which way the fuel goes.. Another words how do you meter it? What ends up happening is 5 cylinders get the fuel and 1 goes lean..

Sameer

NSXTC,
Look at the first few replies on this thread and you will see why many would now go for the fuel head mod. It's cheaper and no extra wirings etc required, also works better.

PorschePhD

Bottom line is the intake is made to flow air, not fuel. Fuel is denser than air therefore when you introduce it into the intake the deficiencies of the intake are exaggerated. For example, runners 1-3 and 4-6 especially the back two are known for terrible flow. So know you add an uncontrolled fuel injector and the intake swirls this gas around as you increase the boost. Cylinders 2 and 5 are ok, but the other 4 now come up for a game of Russian Roulette. The AFR gauge never picks it up because you are running an average AFR bank to bank. You go lean and you crank the injector open until your AFR comes in to range. Doesn't mean each cylinder is proper. Just means that the stream coming from the pipe is.
AICs are also very expensive. They look simple and are, but are not cheap.

Stratman

So Stephan the andial FIC should not be hooked back up on my 76? I was going to have you do it but I thought I'd read you thought it was a bad idea. Now I understand why.

Sameer

Stratman,
The Andial FEC is not a bad idea, just that the fuel head mod is a better route to take.

m42racer

"The Andial FEC is not a bad idea, just that the fuel head mod is a better route to take."

I think both would be. The fuel head will supply more overal volume, but it cannot control the exact amount required at each RPM/MAP point. This is where a controller would work in conjunction with the extra fuel. All the Head mod does is provide more fuel everywhere. More when you don't want it as well as more when you don't. You have to have more volume to obtain the corecct A/F ratio, but you also need some way of metering it. This is the advantage of EFI. So if you do not want to convert, some way of adding more fuel overall, and then metering that fuel would be the best way. Just the fuel mod is going half way. I think the reason for this is that there is presently nothing out there for a good price that will offer the control. The Andial unit does not. I am having something made that will either control 6 additional Injectors or 1 Frequency Valve to adjust the fuel pressures based upon engine speed and MAP with a TPS input as well. This unit will be triggered off the Distributor and will also have timing control and electronic boost control. If anyone is interested you can email me and I will be happy to provide the expected costs etc. So far, in testing, it has worked perfectly. I'm told the system will be PC Laptop tunable when available.

So have the fuel head mod done, and then get some sort of controller to make the extra fuel work for you. Another benefit for a controller will be controlling the emissions at the lower speeds. More overall fuel will cause havoc with emissions. The controller will trim the emissions back to where they are required.

NSXTC

I think I'm definitely going with the fuel head mod...Andial says it takes 5.5 hours to put the FEC on. You have the mess of having to run wires through firewall, mounting module under seat, the adj. **** in the dash somewhere.

With the head mod, it's a very clean installation. And not to mention it's cheaper with the head mod.

M42racer,
Good point on the overal more fuel through all rev range on the fuel head vs. Andial, but doesn't the control plate handle this?

m42racer

No. The volume is increase by opening up the metering holes, I'm told. The stock CIS was sort of close, but never could supply what the engine really wanted at a given RPM and MAP. This is the problem with mechanical FI. EFI can supply the exact amount of fuel at the right time and can be adjusted. So increase the fuel volume and now the amount of fuel you need at the higher MAP will be supplied, it also will increase the amount when not required. Emissions will be alterted as well I would think. This is why I think that a combination is the correct way. The fuel mod will supply the volume required and the electronics will meter it exactly when it is required, based upon the speed density theory. Its like having EFI system control in a way.

JBrown

i had the andial FIC and whet to the modified fuel head. The fuel head modifed worked much better for me. i had all kinds of problems with fuel. put in the andial and it just seam to dump more fuel up top and sometimes too much. I put in the fuel head and works great with a nice A/F mixture. I have the andial left if someone wants it cheap.

m42racer

The Andial unit has a frequency Valve which is forced to receive a duty cycle by the position of the dash switch. This DC is across the RPM band at whatever MAP you run. What I have had made is based upon RPM verses MAP, so at whatever RPM or MAP you have at any given point, the DC is programmed for that exact engine speed and MAP. Now you have a fully mapped Frequency Valve just like a Fuel Injector is in an EFI system. The result is the exact fuel pressure or fuel volume required at that RPM/MAP to achieve the A/F you need. Not trying to be an EFI system, just providing the mechanical system with some electronic control.

PT

Hi Joe, sorry - gone for a few days & missed your question.

Yes, Im getting 12.1 average during even long peak boost (think the Glen/Mont Tremblant/etc). My peak boost is set at 0.95 bar. With the K27-HF, I maintain full boost all the way to redline. And I say average as the AFR actually oscillates between ~12.4 to 11.7 - probably because I'm running so rich that I have slight miss once in a while due to plug drowning?

Re:m42racer's comments - I also agree with his comments unless I completely misunderstand what the fuel head mod is. As I said before, if your overall fuel system can't flow enough, it doesn't matter what the Andial kit do you wont get more fuel. That's where the fuel head mod helps - to allow the system to flow more fuel anywhere anytime.