Stock VS 3.2 intake manifolds. Interesting.
08-05-2005, 03:52 AM
#1
Race Car
Thread Starter
Stock VS 3.2 intake manifolds. Interesting.
Guys,
I got this reply from a reputable tuner. What do you'll think. If I can get the power I want which is around 550bhp without going the 3.2 carrera intake while using stock manifold, not only theres much less work involved but also I save a lot of money.
Tuner
"By contrast, the EFI Injector Blocks are a bolt-in upgrade that allow you to use your existing intercooler and cylinder heads without modifications. They have been proven on 930s producing over 600hp on certified engine dynos. While they do not have the visual appeal of the Carrera manifold, they work extraordinarily well. Ruf also once used a similar setup on his BTR-II engines (before the BTR-III's crazy Carrera-manifold-copy intake with 12 injectors) and the engines were devastatingly more drivable and powerful than his identically built engines with CIS injection".
I got this reply from a reputable tuner. What do you'll think. If I can get the power I want which is around 550bhp without going the 3.2 carrera intake while using stock manifold, not only theres much less work involved but also I save a lot of money.
Tuner
"By contrast, the EFI Injector Blocks are a bolt-in upgrade that allow you to use your existing intercooler and cylinder heads without modifications. They have been proven on 930s producing over 600hp on certified engine dynos. While they do not have the visual appeal of the Carrera manifold, they work extraordinarily well. Ruf also once used a similar setup on his BTR-II engines (before the BTR-III's crazy Carrera-manifold-copy intake with 12 injectors) and the engines were devastatingly more drivable and powerful than his identically built engines with CIS injection".
08-05-2005, 08:44 AM
#2
Nordschleife Master
Sameer,
You need to determine if those claims are made using the stock 32mm port sizing or if the ports and manifold has been increased in size. In stock 32mm configuration with EFI injector blocks, with a 964 cam and good turbo, it will be maxed around 475-500hp at 1bar of boost. You might be able to get to 550 but you'd need to run much higher boost.
You need to determine if those claims are made using the stock 32mm port sizing or if the ports and manifold has been increased in size. In stock 32mm configuration with EFI injector blocks, with a 964 cam and good turbo, it will be maxed around 475-500hp at 1bar of boost. You might be able to get to 550 but you'd need to run much higher boost.
08-05-2005, 08:52 AM
#3
Burning Brakes
exactly what i was thinking- its not the most efficent way of going it- you might as well stick to the method other people use that works well. the stock manifold is crap design anyway isnt?
08-05-2005, 09:17 AM
#5
Nordschleife Master
Sameer, The 930 manifold is 32mm, the heads are 32mm. They can be taken out to the 36-38mm range. The 3.2 Carrera manifold has 41mm ports stock. You are not going to make big power without addressing the airflow limitations from the small intake ports.
The stock manifold's limitations are the inability to enlarge the ports beyond 36-38mm and the tight right angle the air takes into the individual runners. All of this limits its flow characteristics. The 3.2 Carrera manifold also has very long runners which aids in low end torque. Once the manifold has positive pressure the shape of the manifold is not as critical as its ability to flow is.
The stock manifold's limitations are the inability to enlarge the ports beyond 36-38mm and the tight right angle the air takes into the individual runners. All of this limits its flow characteristics. The 3.2 Carrera manifold also has very long runners which aids in low end torque. Once the manifold has positive pressure the shape of the manifold is not as critical as its ability to flow is.
Last edited by Geoffrey; 08-05-2005 at 11:47 AM.
08-05-2005, 05:41 PM
#6
Race Car
Thread Starter
Geoffrey,
I'm a bit confused on your statement below. Pls explain.
"The 3.2 Carrera manifold also has very long runners which aids in low end torque. Once the manifold has positive pressure the shape of the manifold is not as critical as its ability to flow is."
__________________
I'm a bit confused on your statement below. Pls explain.
"The 3.2 Carrera manifold also has very long runners which aids in low end torque. Once the manifold has positive pressure the shape of the manifold is not as critical as its ability to flow is."
__________________
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08-06-2005, 07:35 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
sameer, if you want minimal hassle with all this then you could just buy the injector blocks that fit and not port anything, go to efi and youll get your efi benefits but what i gather you will only get another 40HP on top.... but i bet you once youve done that you will want to get the 550 out of it so you could then sell on the blocks and get the 3.2 inlet, which may not be such a bad route - at least you can get your efi setup as easy as possible.
i think we are in the same boat
i think we are in the same boat
08-06-2005, 02:27 PM
#9
Race Car
Thread Starter
Guys,
More on what the tuner has to say:
Nome of the manifolds flow very evenly in their original form. I don't have flow chart numbers in front of me, but I recall that the stock 930 manifold ports' airflow varies as much as 18%. That's not great, but the 3.2L Carrera manifold isn't optimal, either. See the attached scan (from European Car, July 2005) to see what it is stock and Extrude-Honed. The 930 manifold sees similar gains when ported and flowed by E-H. It's a very worthwhile modification to any intake manifold.
I've also attached a dyno sheet of an engine that was built and tested at Motorsport, next door to where PowerHaus used to be. This dyno has been posted on several different sites (with different people claiming credit), but having worked right next door to that shop where it was actually built I know the real story of what it made with CIS and then with EFI. I saw it being dyno tested on the DTS engine dynamometer. It was a fully-built 3.5L with 41mm ports, twin-plug CD ignition, race springs & cams, 1.75" headers + 3" Borla muffler, a huge T-04 turbo, Motorsports intercooler, and Euro CIS. The intake manifold had also been ported to 41mm and hand blended as best as possible. At 1.3bar -- how the customer normally raced it -- it made just over 490hp with CIS. When converted to EFI and run at 0.8bar it made over 540hp, and over 620hp at 1.1bar. Gaining over 125hp while running less boost is really just remarkable, and the engine dynos demonstrated 2 things:
1) the CIS manifold is not as bad as everyone previously thought
2) the gains from EFI are not to be underestimated
Your engine would see proportionate increases in power since it, like this 3.5L engine, is only held back by the CIS injection. I still believe you can achieve 530-550hp with the K29, depending on if your cylinder heads are ported at all (good porting work really increases the airflow without loosing throttle response).
If you chose to do EFI injector blocks and wanted a very clean, very subtle installation, I would do the following:
* CNC port the intake manifold to 40mm and then Extrude-Hone it; ceramic thermal barrier coat it black afterwards (minimize heat soak and looks great)
* CNC taper port injector blocks from 40mm down to 32mm, creating a velocity above each stock 930 intake port; anodize the injector blocks afterwards (black would give them a factory-original appearance)
* have the stainless fuel rails yellow zinc plated, like your current fuel lines and misc. engine brackets
This would give it almost a factory original appearance.
More on what the tuner has to say:
Nome of the manifolds flow very evenly in their original form. I don't have flow chart numbers in front of me, but I recall that the stock 930 manifold ports' airflow varies as much as 18%. That's not great, but the 3.2L Carrera manifold isn't optimal, either. See the attached scan (from European Car, July 2005) to see what it is stock and Extrude-Honed. The 930 manifold sees similar gains when ported and flowed by E-H. It's a very worthwhile modification to any intake manifold.
I've also attached a dyno sheet of an engine that was built and tested at Motorsport, next door to where PowerHaus used to be. This dyno has been posted on several different sites (with different people claiming credit), but having worked right next door to that shop where it was actually built I know the real story of what it made with CIS and then with EFI. I saw it being dyno tested on the DTS engine dynamometer. It was a fully-built 3.5L with 41mm ports, twin-plug CD ignition, race springs & cams, 1.75" headers + 3" Borla muffler, a huge T-04 turbo, Motorsports intercooler, and Euro CIS. The intake manifold had also been ported to 41mm and hand blended as best as possible. At 1.3bar -- how the customer normally raced it -- it made just over 490hp with CIS. When converted to EFI and run at 0.8bar it made over 540hp, and over 620hp at 1.1bar. Gaining over 125hp while running less boost is really just remarkable, and the engine dynos demonstrated 2 things:
1) the CIS manifold is not as bad as everyone previously thought
2) the gains from EFI are not to be underestimated
Your engine would see proportionate increases in power since it, like this 3.5L engine, is only held back by the CIS injection. I still believe you can achieve 530-550hp with the K29, depending on if your cylinder heads are ported at all (good porting work really increases the airflow without loosing throttle response).
If you chose to do EFI injector blocks and wanted a very clean, very subtle installation, I would do the following:
* CNC port the intake manifold to 40mm and then Extrude-Hone it; ceramic thermal barrier coat it black afterwards (minimize heat soak and looks great)
* CNC taper port injector blocks from 40mm down to 32mm, creating a velocity above each stock 930 intake port; anodize the injector blocks afterwards (black would give them a factory-original appearance)
* have the stainless fuel rails yellow zinc plated, like your current fuel lines and misc. engine brackets
This would give it almost a factory original appearance.
