Faster 930 on Rennlist??
04-08-2004, 01:34 PM
#19
David
I will put you in contact with them.
m42racer
I will go one by one and why I disagree with you.
There is nothing that can be done to these older 2V engines that has not been done before.
Many aftermarket products can be incorporated into our set ups, from fuel pumps, injectors and many others, still everytime you see the same engine combination over and over, we are very behiand when it comes to try new things so I dont agree that everything has been done......
2 Example
1) why until recently it was discovered that you can modify the CIS heads for more fuel and more hp ? what no one ever try it before ?
2) The exhaust insert that we are testing on the heads, I havent found anyone in the Porsche world that has use it, why? or even had an idea what we are talking about, why?
Many more, thats why I disagree.
So, the idea that some engine builders do not want to share info in the hope that any new secret info may leak out is a little silly.
I disagree,pick up the phone and call 5 Porsche tuners and ask to give you a combination for 700hp you be lucky to get a call back, do the same on a supra or any other car and by the end of the day you are set to go.
Its usually because they do not measure up to what they say they can do, or to
I agree,I have never seen so many "Experts"in my life, so much misleading information is not even funny if I was going to type them I be banded from all forums, trust me is all outthere.
Ask the builders who have actually done it. They will tell you, no problem.
I disagree, not true, call the"experts" one example, Andial they have accoplish everything in the racing book right? they forgot to invest in customer relations, so I am sure they will talk to you for more than 5 minutes and help you, and like them I said 90% of them are the same.
so these older engines are in their past
Maybe for them, for some of us a 911 is a aircooled car, has been and will always be
Of couse that just my opinion since I am NOT and EXPERT............
I will put you in contact with them.
m42racer
I will go one by one and why I disagree with you.
There is nothing that can be done to these older 2V engines that has not been done before.
Many aftermarket products can be incorporated into our set ups, from fuel pumps, injectors and many others, still everytime you see the same engine combination over and over, we are very behiand when it comes to try new things so I dont agree that everything has been done......
2 Example
1) why until recently it was discovered that you can modify the CIS heads for more fuel and more hp ? what no one ever try it before ?
2) The exhaust insert that we are testing on the heads, I havent found anyone in the Porsche world that has use it, why? or even had an idea what we are talking about, why?
Many more, thats why I disagree.
So, the idea that some engine builders do not want to share info in the hope that any new secret info may leak out is a little silly.
I disagree,pick up the phone and call 5 Porsche tuners and ask to give you a combination for 700hp you be lucky to get a call back, do the same on a supra or any other car and by the end of the day you are set to go.
Its usually because they do not measure up to what they say they can do, or to
I agree,I have never seen so many "Experts"in my life, so much misleading information is not even funny if I was going to type them I be banded from all forums, trust me is all outthere.
Ask the builders who have actually done it. They will tell you, no problem.
I disagree, not true, call the"experts" one example, Andial they have accoplish everything in the racing book right? they forgot to invest in customer relations, so I am sure they will talk to you for more than 5 minutes and help you, and like them I said 90% of them are the same.
so these older engines are in their past
Maybe for them, for some of us a 911 is a aircooled car, has been and will always be
Of couse that just my opinion since I am NOT and EXPERT............
04-08-2004, 02:12 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
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I disagree that there are no "secrets" out there and that everything that can be done to the 3.3 liter power plant has been done. First of all, technology moves on, so the tuner who applies new technology to these cars will always be pushing the envelope beyond what has been done. Second, there are clearly little things that tuners do that make a big difference in the overall result. My engine, which was built by Stephen Kaspar at Imagine Auto, has been driven by a few highly knowledgeable people here in the San Francisco Bay Area; including a gentleman who owns a shop down the street from Smart Racing Products (co-owned by the well-known Bruce Anderson and Jerry Woods). This gentleman has driven cars built by Anderson and Woods and sone other high end tuners and was amazed at the way my engine feels. He commented that Stephen must have some "secret recipe" as he has never felt a 930 motor so well balanced.
That said, my car is not an HP monster - only about 405 RWHP and 440 RWTQ (and yes, my dyno sheet is posted on this site). I am still on CIS, and up until recently these types of numbers were unheard of on CIS (I am under a 12:1 AFR at peak power). I have the odd dyno in that my Torque is more than HP - this is because the K27-7200 I have is maxed out. You will hear people say these turbos are only good for 475-485 crank HP - well my car is proof. The K27-7200 starts to loose boost in my car abouve 4500 RPMs - hence more torque than HP. Now if I went to a K27-HF I could probably add another 50 HP or so - hmmm.
Finally - when we talk about these high HP cars we need to remember that peak HP and drivability are very different things. I asked Stephen to build my car with low end power in mind and overall drivability. That is what I got. The area under my torque curve is quite large. I have yet to see a dyno sheet for one of the 600-700 HP 930s that is not excessively peaky.
What was my point - hell I don't know. Interesting discussion though.
That said, my car is not an HP monster - only about 405 RWHP and 440 RWTQ (and yes, my dyno sheet is posted on this site). I am still on CIS, and up until recently these types of numbers were unheard of on CIS (I am under a 12:1 AFR at peak power). I have the odd dyno in that my Torque is more than HP - this is because the K27-7200 I have is maxed out. You will hear people say these turbos are only good for 475-485 crank HP - well my car is proof. The K27-7200 starts to loose boost in my car abouve 4500 RPMs - hence more torque than HP. Now if I went to a K27-HF I could probably add another 50 HP or so - hmmm.
Finally - when we talk about these high HP cars we need to remember that peak HP and drivability are very different things. I asked Stephen to build my car with low end power in mind and overall drivability. That is what I got. The area under my torque curve is quite large. I have yet to see a dyno sheet for one of the 600-700 HP 930s that is not excessively peaky.
What was my point - hell I don't know. Interesting discussion though.
04-09-2004, 03:05 AM
#21
This discussion in my opinion is more valuable than any technical post. It really speaks to the point of why we do what we do to these cars.
I do not disagree here with anything. That is not what I am saying. I'm sure there are tons of things that can be done to change the 930 engine. Changing or modifying the CIS fuel Head was not what I was meaning. What I was talking about was any real new development that improved the performance, both in drivability and overal torque. If I can start at the Bottom and work up.
We can add a different Crank with a different stroke. Thats been done. We can add a different Oil Pump. Thats been done. We can change the Cam drive system. Thats been done. We can change the Bore size. Thats been done. We can modify the Cylinder Heads, add bigger Valves, thats all been done. We can change the Intake system and add EFI, thats been done. We can change the Exhaust system, yeap, that been done too. There are many different versions of any of the above, some good, some bad. But in principal, they are all very similar.
As for asking the experts. My point is that there is really no secrets here. The fact that you have called Andial and they told you nothing does not surprise me. In fact they are well known for not even telling you the time of day. My point is that the REAL MASTERS here, not the BS'ers who live in THEIR past, will tell you what you want to know. Telling you makes no difference to them. Most of them sell this info through their parts sales programs. I asked Neil @ Performance Developments along time ago about this very point. He told me there is absolutely nothing that can be kept secret when parts or engines are sold. For example he told me, they are one of the few companies that design there own Camshafts, they don't buy them. As soon as one leaves in an engine, its open for copying. Same for any part of the engine. EFI mapping, engine configuration, Head porting etc. The goal is to stay ahead, lead and not follow he told me.
So much has been said about how some company makes more HP than another. As has been stated, most times the engine program probably called for something different. I do agree that there is a huge difference between customer service and build quality. Some will build only to a certain safe spec, others will venture into areas a little off the wall. Most of the time, the performance numbers been told are never close to the real thing. Inflated, and unreal.
The only real new development I have seen recently was on the new RSR engines. One of PD's Japanese racing customers in the Japanese Sports car series runs a 180 degree 6 engine, not a Boxter 6. And thats nothing new either. I did hear that engine run on their dyno and did that thing sound weird.
I too still believe in this old engine. It still is the quickest 0 -100 MPH car Road and Track have ever tested. Just couldn't match the braking without ABS.
I really think we are all on the same page here. We just read it differently. And I am really no expert here.
Stephen, I can relate to the foot in the mouth bit. Mines in my mouth more than its out!
I do not disagree here with anything. That is not what I am saying. I'm sure there are tons of things that can be done to change the 930 engine. Changing or modifying the CIS fuel Head was not what I was meaning. What I was talking about was any real new development that improved the performance, both in drivability and overal torque. If I can start at the Bottom and work up.
We can add a different Crank with a different stroke. Thats been done. We can add a different Oil Pump. Thats been done. We can change the Cam drive system. Thats been done. We can change the Bore size. Thats been done. We can modify the Cylinder Heads, add bigger Valves, thats all been done. We can change the Intake system and add EFI, thats been done. We can change the Exhaust system, yeap, that been done too. There are many different versions of any of the above, some good, some bad. But in principal, they are all very similar.
As for asking the experts. My point is that there is really no secrets here. The fact that you have called Andial and they told you nothing does not surprise me. In fact they are well known for not even telling you the time of day. My point is that the REAL MASTERS here, not the BS'ers who live in THEIR past, will tell you what you want to know. Telling you makes no difference to them. Most of them sell this info through their parts sales programs. I asked Neil @ Performance Developments along time ago about this very point. He told me there is absolutely nothing that can be kept secret when parts or engines are sold. For example he told me, they are one of the few companies that design there own Camshafts, they don't buy them. As soon as one leaves in an engine, its open for copying. Same for any part of the engine. EFI mapping, engine configuration, Head porting etc. The goal is to stay ahead, lead and not follow he told me.
So much has been said about how some company makes more HP than another. As has been stated, most times the engine program probably called for something different. I do agree that there is a huge difference between customer service and build quality. Some will build only to a certain safe spec, others will venture into areas a little off the wall. Most of the time, the performance numbers been told are never close to the real thing. Inflated, and unreal.
The only real new development I have seen recently was on the new RSR engines. One of PD's Japanese racing customers in the Japanese Sports car series runs a 180 degree 6 engine, not a Boxter 6. And thats nothing new either. I did hear that engine run on their dyno and did that thing sound weird.
I too still believe in this old engine. It still is the quickest 0 -100 MPH car Road and Track have ever tested. Just couldn't match the braking without ABS.
I really think we are all on the same page here. We just read it differently. And I am really no expert here.
Stephen, I can relate to the foot in the mouth bit. Mines in my mouth more than its out!
04-09-2004, 08:30 AM
#22
Nordschleife Master
It has been a long time since anyone raced a 930 based engine in a professional series. Competition breeds innovation. I think you've seen the engine developed as it could at the time with mechanical injection. Had they still been racing these engines in the mid 90s I think you might have seen some additional development as EFI was introduced and other changes made to take advantage of the superior injection system. What you are left with is the club type venue wher money and experience is less prevelant.
The 911 engine is in part a very simple engine and at the same time a very complicated engine. For instance, if you were building a V8, you might very well change the rod length to change the rod ratio and lower the piston speed and reduce the stress on the rod bearings. Now think about the implications in a 911 engine...longer rod means either moving the piston pin higher in the piston (not much room to do that) or increasing the deck height. As you do that the engine grows in width, the chains don't fit, the chain housings don't fit, etc.
Personally I think the newer 996TT based engine holds a lot more promise for increased performance than the 930 engine.
The 911 engine is in part a very simple engine and at the same time a very complicated engine. For instance, if you were building a V8, you might very well change the rod length to change the rod ratio and lower the piston speed and reduce the stress on the rod bearings. Now think about the implications in a 911 engine...longer rod means either moving the piston pin higher in the piston (not much room to do that) or increasing the deck height. As you do that the engine grows in width, the chains don't fit, the chain housings don't fit, etc.
Personally I think the newer 996TT based engine holds a lot more promise for increased performance than the 930 engine.
04-09-2004, 11:43 AM
#23
Indeed I do find this very interesting.......... And I am happy that Im not the only one with the same views.
Most of the time, the performance numbers been told are never close to the real thing. Inflated, and unreal.
And thats one that has always been troublesome for me, why do they do that ? the hp figure is what it is
If I could make one wish,only one wish, I wish that we could all share our findings, no egos,no bs, just unconditional help specially form the "experts"
I know that for them the task of hanging their egos is not an easy one but they should try, what we have gone thru in our project I don't wish on anyone, still when I help others with little that I have learn and I don't even receive a thank you that haven't stop me from helping others, maybe the "experts" can learn from some of us that are not so''experts".
Personally I think the newer 996TT based engine holds a lot more promise for increased performance than the 930 engine
You probably right but for some of us it may be almost impossible to reach that goal but for sure it be nice to drive a 1,000hp 996 tt
PHD
Will you be the one to make 1,000hp out of one of those thing?
Most of the time, the performance numbers been told are never close to the real thing. Inflated, and unreal.
And thats one that has always been troublesome for me, why do they do that ? the hp figure is what it is
If I could make one wish,only one wish, I wish that we could all share our findings, no egos,no bs, just unconditional help specially form the "experts"
I know that for them the task of hanging their egos is not an easy one but they should try, what we have gone thru in our project I don't wish on anyone, still when I help others with little that I have learn and I don't even receive a thank you that haven't stop me from helping others, maybe the "experts" can learn from some of us that are not so''experts".
Personally I think the newer 996TT based engine holds a lot more promise for increased performance than the 930 engine
You probably right but for some of us it may be almost impossible to reach that goal but for sure it be nice to drive a 1,000hp 996 tt
PHD
Will you be the one to make 1,000hp out of one of those thing?
04-09-2004, 04:36 PM
#24
Experts will make up their own minds if they wish to help. Some will and some won't. Remember, they make a living from this. Advice and other froms of help can be useful, but to expect them to give up the how to etc, is wishful thinking. Its very easy to tell someone that to achieve a certain level of performance you will need to this etc, but don't expect them to tell you alot more. But, after that whats left but to build it. Most shops buy the same parts, and send out the machine work. We all can buy the very same parts from the same vendors etc. In most cases, its these vendors who sell the parts that tell most of the shops "how to".
04-10-2004, 06:20 PM
#26
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Originally posted by m42racer
I too still believe in this old engine. It still is the quickest 0 -100 MPH car Road and Track have ever tested. Just couldn't match the braking without ABS.
I too still believe in this old engine. It still is the quickest 0 -100 MPH car Road and Track have ever tested. Just couldn't match the braking without ABS.
Are you sure about that? I think the Enzo holds that record now and it only has a measly 650hp.....
04-11-2004, 09:39 AM
#29
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m42racer,
I checked my old issues again. The PD 930 clocked 7.6 seconds from 0-100mph and 6.1 seconds from 100-0mph (13.7 total) vs. 8.8 and 4.3 (13.1 total) for 996 turbo with X50 Power Kit. The Enzo is on a different planet having clocked as low as 6.3 seconds from 0-100mph in other tests.
I think what would be more interesting is whether anyone here has done the 1/4 mile at over 138mph (like the Enzo). The Enzo weighs 3000lbs and has 650 hp so it wouldn't be a million miles out to compare with a 930 since they weigh around the same.
Btw, that Ebay car looks like a monster machine. Would that be classified as a real 750bhp or one of the wannabes?
I checked my old issues again. The PD 930 clocked 7.6 seconds from 0-100mph and 6.1 seconds from 100-0mph (13.7 total) vs. 8.8 and 4.3 (13.1 total) for 996 turbo with X50 Power Kit. The Enzo is on a different planet having clocked as low as 6.3 seconds from 0-100mph in other tests.
I think what would be more interesting is whether anyone here has done the 1/4 mile at over 138mph (like the Enzo). The Enzo weighs 3000lbs and has 650 hp so it wouldn't be a million miles out to compare with a 930 since they weigh around the same.
Btw, that Ebay car looks like a monster machine. Would that be classified as a real 750bhp or one of the wannabes?
04-11-2004, 01:23 PM
#30
134.5 mph here in the 1/4 mile on a official nhra track, by next week we are in hopes of 140+
Would that be classified as a real 750bhp or one of the wannabes?
A few qs comes to mind 750hp with 50 pds injectors?
If I had spend 150k on a car and is for sale I will take the time to put the dyno sheets on the add.
But then again everyone has 600hp and everyones runs 10s on the street
Would that be classified as a real 750bhp or one of the wannabes?
A few qs comes to mind 750hp with 50 pds injectors?
If I had spend 150k on a car and is for sale I will take the time to put the dyno sheets on the add.
But then again everyone has 600hp and everyones runs 10s on the street