jct911s

Greetings, I've just discovered this board and have familiarized myself with the surroundings. I've searched the forum and the archives, so I hope this is not a redundant topic. I apologize in advance if this has been covered.

I recently purchased a '76 911S Targa. I bought the car for the body (not a spec of rust anywhere, and that's rare here in Richmond, Va). It has the original 2.7 engine with 87K miles and has had the cylinder heads rebuilt and studs in the exhaust side replaced with Devalar (sp?) at 78K. It runs consistently cool (rarely exceeds 180 degrees) as the thermactors have been removed. It also has the Carerra timing chain mod and the popoff valve mod. However, the bottom end of the engine needs rebuilding (a leakdown test revealed massive loss of >60% in two cylinders).

I've searched the Internet and read the forum and concluded that I basically have the following options:
1. rebuild the 2.7 and address it's cooling issues (my choice as it retains originality)
2. purchase a used engine (3.0, 3.2) and install (perhaps just delaying the rebuild)
3. purchase a used engine and rebuild it before installing (may increase overall performance, but at big $$$)

I've self-restored two cars including rebuilding the engines. My first inclination is to buy the books and rebuild the engine myself. However, just from reading some of Wayne's book online it seems there are several specialized tools required that I would only use once, probably in my lifetime. There is also the need to find a machine shop locally that I can trust. I know it can be done, but can anyone comment on the special tools required and the degree of difficulty versus the ROI?

My second inclination is to have someone rebuild the bottom end of the 2.7. So, my second question (and thanks for reading this far) is - can anyone site a shop from personal experience that rebuilt their engine that if I remove mine and ship it to them I can have some degree of faith that it will return in a fashion that I would consider correct?

I'm looking for a Motor Meister like concept where the shop is respected and the quality of the work matches the cost.

Thanks for any and all responses.

m42racer

I can. You will not be disapointed. Their work is first class. They are expensive, but the quality matches the workmanship. They do it right, leave nothing not done, and spend alot of time checking to make sure everything is correct. Another big difference they have full machining service in house so they do it right and quickly. A walk through their shop is an adventure. I was in there today getting an update on my engines, and I saw 3 904 4 cam engines, 2 962C water engines, 2 996 Cup engines, and several older 993 RSR engines. And that was just the Porsche engines. Its a shame they are on the West coast, as a visit is very worthwhile. I have had several engines done there, and at present they are building a 944 Turbo and another 911 turbo engine for me. Call and speak to Neil @ Performance Developments, 949 646 7461.

timlooney

I have heard great things about Steve Weiner at Rennsport Systems in Portland, OR www.rennsportsystems.com. Steve is a technical advisor here at the Rennlist. Drop him and email or give him a buzz he is very willing to share his knowledge. Even though I am near Boston I am going to ship my transmission to him as well as have him do all of the machine work on my '82 3.0 rebuild. You always loose with the cheapest quote.

I have heard some very scary things about Motor Meister but I have had no dealings with them. Check the Pelican Parts list and search for Motor Meister...

HarryD

I am assuming your leakdown revealed a leak past the rings as your heads were recently done.

Have you contacted the PCA chapter near you to see if a nearby shop would be ok?

Personnally, when I had my top end done, I had it done close to home where I could inspect progress frequently and be able to see and ask questions of my wrench.

One other issue is that if you ship the motor to some guy far away, warranty issues can become a problem. If you use a local fellow, he can take your car, pull the engine, rebuild, reinstall and deliver a running car to you. That way, he has 100% of the responsibility for getting it right.

That said, when I was looking for the guy for my rebuild, Steve was high on my list. However, I wanted a very limited scope and Steve did not want to go that way. If I was going to do a performance upgrade type rebuild, I would approach him again. I respect his opinion and the quality of his work.

I shied away from a transplant since I was concerned that the used motor I would put in would require a rebuild in 1-3 years.

jct911s

Thanks M42Racer, Tim and Harry for the prompt replies. I am gathering as much information as possible before making a decision, so I do appreciate your input. I've sent an email to Steve at Rennsport and await his reply. I will also contact Neil at Performance and the local chapter of PCA to check on local shops.

Having not heard from anyone who has rebuilt their own engine, I wonder if that's indicative of the degree of difficulty, or ??

At any rate, thanks to all who respond.

Lomotpk

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/forum...s=&forumid=257

blabla914

Since you haven't heard from anyone who has rebuilt their own motor I'll give that part a go.
Actually I am currently doing my first 911 motor, but I've done several VW motors both of the Type I (bug) and Type 4 (914) variety in several stages of modification. I've also done some work on big block V-8's. If you don't have engine building experience, I don't suggest you learn on your 911 motor. Its not that it is so complex, but there are a LOT of pieces and many of the big ones are cast mag that has to be handled appropriately. There are also an unusually high number of expensive mistakes that can be made.
Due to the design of the motor there are some tasks that are a bit more complicated than usual. Setting compression is a good example. Since the pistons are domed you need to do some measurements that require stuff like gauge blocks, hieght gauges, and a depth gauge.
Keep in mind, even if you do the assembly yourself you'll still need a competent machine shop to do headwork and put in time certs if needed.
As part of your decision I highly recommend you buy a copy of "The 911 Perfomance Handbook" by Bruce Anderson. This will give you a good idea of what the pitfalls are and he even has a chapter on deciding if you should tackle a rebuild yourself. If that doesn't send you running away screaming, get the factory manuals and check them out before you decide.

Good Luck

Kelly

TYPE911

Based on the threads I have read on rennlist & Pelican, this concept is not what you find with MM

jct911s

Let me correct my comment:

"I'm looking for a Motor Meister like concept where the shop is respected and the quality of the work matches the cost."

to what I meant to say :

"I'm looking for a Motor Meister like concept EXCEPT where the shop is respected and the quality of the work matches the cost."

HarryD

James,

You might also want to get Wayne Dempsey's book (http://www.101projects.com/911-Rebuild/index.htm) to get a an idea of what you need.

BTW-I have always liked those Triumph TR-4s.

dial911

James,
You state you have 'self-restored two cars '. Good. That indicates you have the mechanical ability, and probably have a tool collection.

The 911 motor is made to be rebuilt, and so, comes apart with logical process.
If you have ever worked on some (air-cooled) m/c engines, you will feel right at home doing the Porsche flat-6.

Regarding the special tools required....yes, you need some. Buy them and don't cheap out on any of them. Those, and the Factory shop manuals then get to work. If the outlay of the special tooling distresses you, you can always sell them without much loss, when the job is done. But you might just want to do a few more motors (friends?); it's that satisfying.

timlooney

Just my opinion...

I have to agree the tools will set you back about $700 in speciality tools and books alone. I have rebuilt many different types of motors from V8's to 4 cylinder outboard motors. Each one is different and unique, that's why I recommend investing in the tools and as much knowledge as you can. The 911 motor should not scare you because there is so much information out there, study up and grab a wrench.

I have been designing and building custom equipment and products for 10 years and this is how it works: Take you time and spend the money the first time or you will spend twice as much and take 3 times as long when you have to redo the things you skimped on or rushed through. When in doubt ask here or at Pelican, there are tons of very knowledgeable people that will give you advice or lend a hand.

RoninLB

Steve Weiner for the rebuild

or if you decide to rebuild it yourself use Competition Engineering for the machine work

both of these groups are highly respected

GavinB

Just finished a complete rebuild and think Walt at CE was great.

DanS911

Well I guess some one should speak for the other side. Let's not forget that we are talking about rebuilding a 2.7. There are those out there who will tell you that's not the best course of action. I bought my '76 911 with a 3.0 motor in it. I have no idea who did it or when, (unfortunatly available records didn't go back that far). I drive it to work every day and have for years. I do about 10 DE events every year and a bunch of autocross events too. The thing just keeps on running. I love my 3.0