Can only keep one: '70 911T vs. 997 C4S. Advise needed!
11-13-2015, 10:12 PM
#16
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For me, it would be a no brainer, sell the water pumper, keep the 911.
you could always put a 3.0 in the "T" (and rebuild the stock engine & keep it) "S" brakes (again, rebuild & save all parts you swap out so you & easily convert back to stock) and enjoy & drive the snot out of it.
you could always put a 3.0 in the "T" (and rebuild the stock engine & keep it) "S" brakes (again, rebuild & save all parts you swap out so you & easily convert back to stock) and enjoy & drive the snot out of it.
11-16-2015, 11:18 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
An "E" isn't a "T." Zenith carbs and meek mouse cams make a world of difference. (Note I'm talking as-delivered. You want to go crazy, and make it into a high compression 2.4 with Webers and something like GE60 cams, have at it.)
The "T" exists where it does in the value spectrum because of what it is, relative to the rest--the least desirable. On a '65, no one is paying first year money because it's a good driver; 100% of the money is on it being a collectible. Hell, it's a unicorn that has mechanical fuel pump, splash fed tensioners (though I'm guessing all the restored cars at this point have sealed units hidden inside those chain covers), six bolt exhaust covers, Solex carbs, and center oil fed cams. That's what you need to have a mid-six figure example.
And to bring a 356 into the discussion is just going off the rails. Like I said, 6 cylinder 912. Mellow, and slow by today's standards. If you've come up to one, maybe. But going backward, I just don't see it outside of being a financial play.
The "T" exists where it does in the value spectrum because of what it is, relative to the rest--the least desirable. On a '65, no one is paying first year money because it's a good driver; 100% of the money is on it being a collectible. Hell, it's a unicorn that has mechanical fuel pump, splash fed tensioners (though I'm guessing all the restored cars at this point have sealed units hidden inside those chain covers), six bolt exhaust covers, Solex carbs, and center oil fed cams. That's what you need to have a mid-six figure example.
And to bring a 356 into the discussion is just going off the rails. Like I said, 6 cylinder 912. Mellow, and slow by today's standards. If you've come up to one, maybe. But going backward, I just don't see it outside of being a financial play.
I know the difference between the T and the E but the T's were not performers but had the 911 feel that is missing from the 912 with the lighter back end. We have a local AXer who can do some serious times sometimes FTD against seasoned NASA and SCCA champs in a stock T against some GT3's and other well set up AX cars. It isn't always about power. It is wild to watch him maneuver around the cones with his inner wheel 6-8" off the ground. I don't think he uses his brakes.
IMO the T is a step above the 912 but even the 912's are seeing movement with prime examples selling for as much as $60-80k in all original condition. Although the majority of them aren't worth much But it is a narrow market.
11-16-2015, 01:45 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
We're kind of heading off track here, but I have owned a 68T, a 70T and still own a 67 912. Sure, performancewise a 70T is a step up from either of the other cars. But SWB cars do drive differently. Some love them, some don't care for it.
Regardless, I think the value difference of a 65-66 912 over a 70-71T is well founded(the 912 being worth MORE). They are from a time when the cars were more hand crafted. They have certain uniquenesses to them. I don't see any reason for a 69 912 to be worth more than a 70T. But when you go farther back, the older cars abosolutely should be worth more.
ps. prime early 912s are selling at $100k or more. Later ones not so much, but if we are talking primo condition 65 and 66 cars, $60-80K is low.
Regardless, I think the value difference of a 65-66 912 over a 70-71T is well founded(the 912 being worth MORE). They are from a time when the cars were more hand crafted. They have certain uniquenesses to them. I don't see any reason for a 69 912 to be worth more than a 70T. But when you go farther back, the older cars abosolutely should be worth more.
ps. prime early 912s are selling at $100k or more. Later ones not so much, but if we are talking primo condition 65 and 66 cars, $60-80K is low.
11-16-2015, 05:29 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
We're kind of heading off track here, but I have owned a 68T, a 70T and still own a 67 912. Sure, performancewise a 70T is a step up from either of the other cars. But SWB cars do drive differently. Some love them, some don't care for it.
Regardless, I think the value difference of a 65-66 912 over a 70-71T is well founded(the 912 being worth MORE). They are from a time when the cars were more hand crafted. They have certain uniquenesses to them. I don't see any reason for a 69 912 to be worth more than a 70T. But when you go farther back, the older cars abosolutely should be worth more.
ps. prime early 912s are selling at $100k or more. Later ones not so much, but if we are talking primo condition 65 and 66 cars, $60-80K is low.
Regardless, I think the value difference of a 65-66 912 over a 70-71T is well founded(the 912 being worth MORE). They are from a time when the cars were more hand crafted. They have certain uniquenesses to them. I don't see any reason for a 69 912 to be worth more than a 70T. But when you go farther back, the older cars abosolutely should be worth more.
ps. prime early 912s are selling at $100k or more. Later ones not so much, but if we are talking primo condition 65 and 66 cars, $60-80K is low.
The 65 sold for $280k with commission nearly 2 years ago. I recently saw a very nice all original 66 912 with 32k miles sell for $80k I though that was a lot but the car was sublime. I know of a few 70T's that have brought 6 figures. But again original documented cars. A friend sold two 69 912's both needing extensive work but rust free for $43k for both but that was about 8 months back.
I knew a crazy Frenchmen working in NYC bought a 67T on ebay for $7k sight unseen 10 years ago. Thought Washington was DC, didn't know there was a state. Drove the car with his buddy back to NYC and it made it. Brought it to me and asked my advice. What do you tell someone who just risked their life driving a structurally unsound car from Washington to NYC?
The car was completely rotted. The floor boards were gone and they had some huge holes along with the seat support almost failing and nothing to support the floor board. The carpet kept your feet from hitting the ground. Don't get me started on the torsion tube. Engine ran strong though and the interior was quite good. Sent him to a few people and they all condemned the car. Stored it in a Barn in upstate NY and I inquired about a year back and he said someone paid him $28k for it as is. Go figure. Full resto on this car is an easy $50 more like $60k.
The T was definitely a replacement for the 912 and about as quick as my 74 2.0 914 but didn't handle as well. Sometimes it seems to be more about finding the right buyer at the right time than having the right car. Look at what people are paying for 76 and 77 930's? Not my first choice as a driver They did look great but the car was never settled.
11-17-2015, 12:38 AM
#20
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We're kind of heading off track here, but I have owned a 68T, a 70T and still own a 67 912. Sure, performancewise a 70T is a step up from either of the other cars. But SWB cars do drive differently. Some love them, some don't care for it.
Regardless, I think the value difference of a 65-66 912 over a 70-71T is well founded(the 912 being worth MORE). They are from a time when the cars were more hand crafted. They have certain uniquenesses to them. I don't see any reason for a 69 912 to be worth more than a 70T. But when you go farther back, the older cars abosolutely should be worth more.
ps. prime early 912s are selling at $100k or more. Later ones not so much, but if we are talking primo condition 65 and 66 cars, $60-80K is low.
Regardless, I think the value difference of a 65-66 912 over a 70-71T is well founded(the 912 being worth MORE). They are from a time when the cars were more hand crafted. They have certain uniquenesses to them. I don't see any reason for a 69 912 to be worth more than a 70T. But when you go farther back, the older cars abosolutely should be worth more.
ps. prime early 912s are selling at $100k or more. Later ones not so much, but if we are talking primo condition 65 and 66 cars, $60-80K is low.
I have seen 3 gauge 912 sell for 40-60k wheras it is more common to see 69-73T closer to 100k.
The fact that you say the 65-66 912 are worth more then the 69-73T has me wondering as I am pondering a 66 irish green 912 project. Fairly good condition.
Are restored early 912 really fetching close to $100k? I assumed it was in the $50k range?
911 SWB and 912 SWB get me excited FWIW.
11-17-2015, 09:46 AM
#21
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11-17-2015, 12:00 PM
#23
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So 1969 911 2.0L and 70-71 911 2.2L values compared to 65-66 912 values.
I have not seen the early 912 values triumph the 69-71 911T values.
Unless I am way off and missed the stronger sales of early 912?
11-17-2015, 12:22 PM
#25
Race Director
lot of off topic conversation.
Given your situation, it makes more sense to sell the 70. Unless you have substantial mechanical and bodywork skill, that will cost a fair bit, and you have very little idea about the true condition of the motor and the underlying tub. Given your obligations, it seems like this project would take forever to get done.
Drive the 997 every day and don't worry about a second car. Seems like it makes more sense.
Given your situation, it makes more sense to sell the 70. Unless you have substantial mechanical and bodywork skill, that will cost a fair bit, and you have very little idea about the true condition of the motor and the underlying tub. Given your obligations, it seems like this project would take forever to get done.
Drive the 997 every day and don't worry about a second car. Seems like it makes more sense.
11-17-2015, 10:15 PM
#27
Race Director
11-18-2015, 09:09 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
I know the car did go to florida but can't be sure it is the same. If it is it is a nice start.
Quad has a good point I am about to look at a couple of project cars some 356's and others that have deteriorated over the years because the owners had great intentions and planned to restore them. Thirty years later they are still planning. Unless you have a game plan you might regret having it in the way all the time like these guys.
Quad has a good point I am about to look at a couple of project cars some 356's and others that have deteriorated over the years because the owners had great intentions and planned to restore them. Thirty years later they are still planning. Unless you have a game plan you might regret having it in the way all the time like these guys.
11-18-2015, 01:12 PM
#29
Racer
Thread Starter
As much as I'd hate to believe it, I'll probably fall into this category. On one hand, I know I'll probably never come across another longhood in my price range that is not a complete disaster. On the other, I don't have much of an emotional attachement to the car considering I've never driven it, it wasn't handed down through the family, and it has already sat for 2 years. Looks like I'll be listing it soon, and throwing the money towards something that makes more sense.
11-18-2015, 01:25 PM
#30
Nordschleife Master
If you won't ever get to it sell it. I love my old cars but am considering selling two of them because they need attention I won't give them in the near future.
You sound young enough that you aren't yet into your earning curve. My income more than doubled between 30 and 40 years old. At 30 I might have bought a project car for cheap that was going to take me 5 years to get on it's feet and done. Now, at 45, I just opened my checkbook to buy a project 911. Then I sent it to a body guy and opened the checkbook again. When I get it home in a month or two I will do certain sorting of the car myself because I will always like to play with them. But the point is ten years from now if you want an old 911 maybe you will be able to just buy one, even if it costs more than buying one would cost today.
You sound young enough that you aren't yet into your earning curve. My income more than doubled between 30 and 40 years old. At 30 I might have bought a project car for cheap that was going to take me 5 years to get on it's feet and done. Now, at 45, I just opened my checkbook to buy a project 911. Then I sent it to a body guy and opened the checkbook again. When I get it home in a month or two I will do certain sorting of the car myself because I will always like to play with them. But the point is ten years from now if you want an old 911 maybe you will be able to just buy one, even if it costs more than buying one would cost today.