Photo: Broken crossmember, can it be fixed??
08-04-2003, 10:15 PM
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Photo: Broken crossmember, can it be fixed??
To my dismay I found this broken crossmember (for lack of a better word) while doing tie rods on my 82SC. Bummer, one of the PO must have wired it to hold it, and it had a clean PPI. Can it be welded? I don't relish the thought of tearing the bottom out of this car and rebuilding this with a salvaged part. Any help appreciated.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Dsc01505.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Dsc01505.jpg
08-05-2003, 01:15 AM
#3
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Well,
the bad news is you would need to replace the whole thing.
The good news is that while it's ugly and the thought of bailing wire under the car would give me twitches, it's really not that bad (from what I can see)
If it is what I think it is the bolt that you see with the wire around it is actually the torsion bar preload adjustment and doesn't bolt to anything anyway. Compare it to the other side of the car. Usually it protrudes through an open hole in the crossmember but does not attach to it. All of this is usually covered up by a metal shield so a PPI may not of caught it.
Could be someone busted off a peice and thought it needed "repair".
(just the kind of thinking that goes hand in hand with duct tape and twisty ties...)
I had to replace one of these on my 74 and the part wasn't expensive but there is a bunch of removal/replacement involved.
Anyway, good luck.
the bad news is you would need to replace the whole thing.
The good news is that while it's ugly and the thought of bailing wire under the car would give me twitches, it's really not that bad (from what I can see)
If it is what I think it is the bolt that you see with the wire around it is actually the torsion bar preload adjustment and doesn't bolt to anything anyway. Compare it to the other side of the car. Usually it protrudes through an open hole in the crossmember but does not attach to it. All of this is usually covered up by a metal shield so a PPI may not of caught it.
Could be someone busted off a peice and thought it needed "repair".
(just the kind of thinking that goes hand in hand with duct tape and twisty ties...)
I had to replace one of these on my 74 and the part wasn't expensive but there is a bunch of removal/replacement involved.
Anyway, good luck.
08-05-2003, 01:23 AM
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that's the adjustment screw for front ride hight, and the metal that's missing doesn't bear that much of the load on the suspension, and the screw floats in the opening when the suspension is moving, shouldn't need replaced immediatly but keep an eye on it........change it this winter and enjoy the rest of summer IMO
08-05-2003, 02:55 AM
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P-on
What a bummer! According to my manual (bentley) the part is called front suspension subframe or crossmember subframe. You should memorize that because I think you need to get a new one.
The crossmember is forged aluminum. While you can weld aluminum if it is cracked etc. I wouldn't want to try to add material where a whole chunk is missing like in your setup. Compare it to the other side and you will see that there is a whole stretch broken out. I am really wondering how that could happen? Some real moron must have worked on it trying to pry on it or something more severe must have happened to the suspension. In an accident the torsion bar may be pushed back pressing the bolt through the crossmember? That would be even worse than a moron mechanic. I'd check it all out very carefully. I'd definitely check the front mounting locations for the control arm and the control arm itself for damage.
Others have commented well on the function of the torsion bar retaining cap and the adjustment screw for ride height but opposed to what others say, I think your damage needs immediate fixing: The name says it: the cap also retains your torsion bar where it belongs. The cap is floating and only held by the stop the crossmember puts to the adjustment screw. That stop is gone on your car and replaced with a wire. Now, do you like to hold your torsion bar in with a wire? Chances that it will float out enough to free the torsion bar's splines and drop your wheel in the fender? I don't know, but if it happens you sure can kill yourself! Even if it is 1 in a million, why leave it to chance if you can fix it?
A used crossmember can be found at any dismantler. It is a pain to replace, but only labor wise. It is pretty straight forward. I was downt to the bare crossmember recently when rebuilding the front suspension. You may actually use this as an excuse to rebuild yours? Attached to it are the control arm, the torsion bar, the steering rack, the anti sway bar and the rock shield. Some of that is already off now on your car, so don't start putting it back. If you tackle it yourself, you can do it on a weekend. If you have it done, expect to pay a pretty bunch for labor since it is labor intense. I would think a shop charges about 10 hours + for this?
Like cab&guy says, I'd go see the PPI shop and aks for my money back: JR is incorrect: The torsion bar retaining cap and the adjustment bolt are not covered by anything from the factory. If you look at your picture, that open hole you see is where the sway bar and rock shield are mounted. The rock shield goes to the inside of the car from that point on, covering only the rubber boots of the steering rack / inner tierod and the fuel pump. The bummer area is clearly visible with the car on a lift and the wheels off. This should have been found in a PPI. That wire is a real eye sore, I am positive the wrench took a shortcut when doing the suspension check.
Good Luck.
Cheers, George
What a bummer! According to my manual (bentley) the part is called front suspension subframe or crossmember subframe. You should memorize that because I think you need to get a new one.
The crossmember is forged aluminum. While you can weld aluminum if it is cracked etc. I wouldn't want to try to add material where a whole chunk is missing like in your setup. Compare it to the other side and you will see that there is a whole stretch broken out. I am really wondering how that could happen? Some real moron must have worked on it trying to pry on it or something more severe must have happened to the suspension. In an accident the torsion bar may be pushed back pressing the bolt through the crossmember? That would be even worse than a moron mechanic. I'd check it all out very carefully. I'd definitely check the front mounting locations for the control arm and the control arm itself for damage.
Others have commented well on the function of the torsion bar retaining cap and the adjustment screw for ride height but opposed to what others say, I think your damage needs immediate fixing: The name says it: the cap also retains your torsion bar where it belongs. The cap is floating and only held by the stop the crossmember puts to the adjustment screw. That stop is gone on your car and replaced with a wire. Now, do you like to hold your torsion bar in with a wire? Chances that it will float out enough to free the torsion bar's splines and drop your wheel in the fender? I don't know, but if it happens you sure can kill yourself! Even if it is 1 in a million, why leave it to chance if you can fix it?
A used crossmember can be found at any dismantler. It is a pain to replace, but only labor wise. It is pretty straight forward. I was downt to the bare crossmember recently when rebuilding the front suspension. You may actually use this as an excuse to rebuild yours?
Attached to it are the control arm, the torsion bar, the steering rack, the anti sway bar and the rock shield. Some of that is already off now on your car, so don't start putting it back. If you tackle it yourself, you can do it on a weekend. If you have it done, expect to pay a pretty bunch for labor since it is labor intense. I would think a shop charges about 10 hours + for this?Like cab&guy says, I'd go see the PPI shop and aks for my money back: JR is incorrect: The torsion bar retaining cap and the adjustment bolt are not covered by anything from the factory. If you look at your picture, that open hole you see is where the sway bar and rock shield are mounted. The rock shield goes to the inside of the car from that point on, covering only the rubber boots of the steering rack / inner tierod and the fuel pump. The bummer area is clearly visible with the car on a lift and the wheels off. This should have been found in a PPI. That wire is a real eye sore, I am positive the wrench took a shortcut when doing the suspension check.
Good Luck.
Cheers, George
08-05-2003, 06:47 AM
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Wow. Listen to George and Steve. Call a dismantler and get a new crossmember immediately. Here is a picture of the part and part number:
As you can see, there is not a lot that holds it in there. The steering rack does bolt to the top, but again there are only 2 bolts. While I have not tried to remove just this piece, as you can see in the diagram, after removing the endcap with the adjustment screw (on the end where yours is broken) the a-arms just slide into this member as referenced in the drawing with the blue line. With some jack stands to support the a-arms, and securing the steering rack, you could probably get this removed without any other dismantling. Couple of hours maybe for the mechanical work. Note the exact position of the screws in those end caps before removal, and get them into the exact position when reinstalling. As mentioned, this sets the torsion bar preload, and effectively your ride height in the front. Then you should consider an alignment just to be sure everything is where it needs to be.
And demand your money back from the PPI.....
Good luck.
As you can see, there is not a lot that holds it in there. The steering rack does bolt to the top, but again there are only 2 bolts. While I have not tried to remove just this piece, as you can see in the diagram, after removing the endcap with the adjustment screw (on the end where yours is broken) the a-arms just slide into this member as referenced in the drawing with the blue line. With some jack stands to support the a-arms, and securing the steering rack, you could probably get this removed without any other dismantling. Couple of hours maybe for the mechanical work. Note the exact position of the screws in those end caps before removal, and get them into the exact position when reinstalling. As mentioned, this sets the torsion bar preload, and effectively your ride height in the front. Then you should consider an alignment just to be sure everything is where it needs to be.
And demand your money back from the PPI.....
Good luck.
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08-05-2003, 08:09 AM
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You have all been immensely helpful. By the way, does anyone here find these 911's a PIA to work under? I have a harder time getting them up high, at least harder than my 944. I'm considering a scissors lift.
08-05-2003, 12:15 PM
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As far as jacking the car,I brought a floor jack from Sears that gets the car very high off the ground.Higher then the extensions of my 3 ton jack stands. It's sold at Sears as a SUV jack but has a low enough profile to get under a 911.It made the recent replacemnet of my starter a breeze.
08-05-2003, 01:18 PM
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The suspension is a breeze to work on. The engine copartment is for proctologists unless you remove the drivetrain!
Jacking up a 911 is easy. Buy a jack pad and a 6 ton jack that gets it up about 1-1.5 feet. Use 6 ton stands in the back under the torsion bar tubes and 3 or 4 ton jacks under the front torsion bars / control arms. You can get over a foot clearance this way and comfortably work on things. Of all the cars I have, the 911 is up in the air quickest compared to all the others.
If you buy a lift, consider a post lift. A scissor jack blocks much of the underside of the car and can be in the way if you remove the drivetrain. I like this particular one: http://www.autolifters.com/6000_lp.html and have yet to see a less expensive one. Now if I could only convince the wife that we need this in the backyard!
Take care, George
Jacking up a 911 is easy. Buy a jack pad and a 6 ton jack that gets it up about 1-1.5 feet. Use 6 ton stands in the back under the torsion bar tubes and 3 or 4 ton jacks under the front torsion bars / control arms. You can get over a foot clearance this way and comfortably work on things. Of all the cars I have, the 911 is up in the air quickest compared to all the others.
If you buy a lift, consider a post lift. A scissor jack blocks much of the underside of the car and can be in the way if you remove the drivetrain. I like this particular one: http://www.autolifters.com/6000_lp.html and have yet to see a less expensive one. Now if I could only convince the wife that we need this in the backyard!
Take care, George
08-05-2003, 01:23 PM
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P-on,
I agree that the component needs to be repaired. There are a few things that are required: brakes and suspension. The car does not need to go forward but definitely needs to stop and turn.
Just to clarify the welding option: You could weld it, but it would have to be removed, cleaned, and welded in the proper environment. Aluminum (if it is) is a tricky metal to weld, and has to be done using heliarc or TIG welding. Then you have to be concerned with the effects of the heat on the rest of the component. (Not to sound arrogant but to back up my claims: I am a mechanical engineer that specializes in custom machine design, robotics, and automation systems with a BSME and MSME. )
Because you have to take it out to do it properly it would be easier to replace it with a good used part. Try www.germanautodismantlers.com and see if they can get you one.
I agree that the component needs to be repaired. There are a few things that are required: brakes and suspension. The car does not need to go forward but definitely needs to stop and turn.
Just to clarify the welding option: You could weld it, but it would have to be removed, cleaned, and welded in the proper environment. Aluminum (if it is) is a tricky metal to weld, and has to be done using heliarc or TIG welding. Then you have to be concerned with the effects of the heat on the rest of the component. (Not to sound arrogant but to back up my claims: I am a mechanical engineer that specializes in custom machine design, robotics, and automation systems with a BSME and MSME. )
Because you have to take it out to do it properly it would be easier to replace it with a good used part. Try www.germanautodismantlers.com and see if they can get you one.
08-05-2003, 10:24 PM
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08-06-2003, 02:43 AM
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"I got one from Parts Heaven, www.partsheaven.com ,last year for $75.00."
I am in driving distance of parts heaven and highly recommend the place. Very well organized with staff that knows what they are doing. They are a life saver for small and larger used bits. I also buy most of my new replacement parts there. Places like this need all the support they can get.
Cheers, George
I am in driving distance of parts heaven and highly recommend the place. Very well organized with staff that knows what they are doing. They are a life saver for small and larger used bits. I also buy most of my new replacement parts there. Places like this need all the support they can get.
Cheers, George
08-06-2003, 12:23 PM
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I think 10 hours is a lot. I have done it in much less time. Maybe go check witha shop. It is a DIY if your are used to working on cars. You will need a ride height setting and an alignment when you are finsihed. So, unless you do your own alignments, you will end up at the shop anyway. There is a steel version of this cross member that was in an earlier car. Serves the same function, IMO. Weighs a bit more, but I'm not too disturbed by a pound or two on a street car that low on the car. The steel one is cheap as it is the same one used on 914's. And it is strong.