911SC SEEKING ADVICE for engine performance or 3.6 engine swap
02-21-2014, 04:57 PM
#1
911SC SEEKING ADVICE for engine performance or 3.6 engine swap
Hello 911 RennLister's,
I was hoping for some advice.
Currently own an '83 911SC.
It's a tad underpowered for my taste....naturally it did not help when I drove my friends 86 911 and his 964.
If have a few questions:
1. Are there any mods /upgrades / tweaks ( other than a good tune-up ) that can be done to the SC to make it more responsive, like 84 on up Carrera's?
2. A suggestion was drop a 3.6 motor and g50 trani.
Is this truly a bolt-on scenario or will it require some cutting of SC sheet metal? I do realize I would need the computer/ ECU/ brain and possibly fuel pump from 3.6. Is this conversion a common one?
3. What is the approximate cost to buy a 3.6 these days?
4. Is there a thread or website that documents such a conversion.
Thank you kindly in advance for your expertise in the subject matter.
Steve
PS: also looking for a 928GTS ( yes I do post on the 928 forum ).
I was hoping for some advice.
Currently own an '83 911SC.
It's a tad underpowered for my taste....naturally it did not help when I drove my friends 86 911 and his 964.
If have a few questions:
1. Are there any mods /upgrades / tweaks ( other than a good tune-up ) that can be done to the SC to make it more responsive, like 84 on up Carrera's?
2. A suggestion was drop a 3.6 motor and g50 trani.
Is this truly a bolt-on scenario or will it require some cutting of SC sheet metal? I do realize I would need the computer/ ECU/ brain and possibly fuel pump from 3.6. Is this conversion a common one?
3. What is the approximate cost to buy a 3.6 these days?
4. Is there a thread or website that documents such a conversion.
Thank you kindly in advance for your expertise in the subject matter.
Steve
PS: also looking for a 928GTS ( yes I do post on the 928 forum ).
02-21-2014, 05:44 PM
#2
First, is there anything wrong with your SC?
A 3.0L mod will cost you at least $10K and not add any value to your car. A 3.6 conversion will cost at least $12-15K and not add any value to your car.
I suggest that if you want a higher-performance car, just sell your SC for $20K and add in the $12-15K you'd spend on mods.
This gives you a $30K+ budget to buy the car you really want.
A 3.0L mod will cost you at least $10K and not add any value to your car. A 3.6 conversion will cost at least $12-15K and not add any value to your car.
I suggest that if you want a higher-performance car, just sell your SC for $20K and add in the $12-15K you'd spend on mods.
This gives you a $30K+ budget to buy the car you really want.
02-21-2014, 06:04 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE=Crossworth;11154112]Hello 911 RennLister's,
I was hoping for some advice.
Currently own an '83 911SC.
It's a tad underpowered for my taste....naturally it did not help when I drove my friends 86 911 and his 964.
If have a few questions:
1. Are there any mods /upgrades / tweaks ( other than a good tune-up ) that can be done to the SC to make it more responsive, like 84 on up Carrera's?
Hmm not much besides doing carbs, headers and exhaust. Or 3.2SS
2. A suggestion was drop a 3.6 motor and g50 trani.
Is this truly a bolt-on scenario or will it require some cutting of SC sheet metal? I do realize I would need the computer/ ECU/ brain and possibly fuel pump from 3.6. Is this conversion a common one?
3.6 with 915 is a great boost in power but you are looking at around 20k - selling your engine.
3. What is the approximate cost to buy a 3.6 these days?
depends on condition and which 3.6 964's can be had from 5k and up
993 7500+ all depends on condition
4. Is there a thread or website that documents such a conversion.
Yes and the guy that does it is an expert and does it at a reasonable cost or supplies good engines and rest of the parts plus all the info.
http://instant-g.com/Products/36Conversion/FAQs.html
Just remember its your car and do what you want with it, unless you only bought it to hold onto it and resell it later to make money
I'll be doing the 3.6 also.
I was hoping for some advice.
Currently own an '83 911SC.
It's a tad underpowered for my taste....naturally it did not help when I drove my friends 86 911 and his 964.
If have a few questions:
1. Are there any mods /upgrades / tweaks ( other than a good tune-up ) that can be done to the SC to make it more responsive, like 84 on up Carrera's?
Hmm not much besides doing carbs, headers and exhaust. Or 3.2SS
2. A suggestion was drop a 3.6 motor and g50 trani.
Is this truly a bolt-on scenario or will it require some cutting of SC sheet metal? I do realize I would need the computer/ ECU/ brain and possibly fuel pump from 3.6. Is this conversion a common one?
3.6 with 915 is a great boost in power but you are looking at around 20k - selling your engine.
3. What is the approximate cost to buy a 3.6 these days?
depends on condition and which 3.6 964's can be had from 5k and up
993 7500+ all depends on condition
4. Is there a thread or website that documents such a conversion.
Yes and the guy that does it is an expert and does it at a reasonable cost or supplies good engines and rest of the parts plus all the info.
http://instant-g.com/Products/36Conversion/FAQs.html
Just remember its your car and do what you want with it, unless you only bought it to hold onto it and resell it later to make money
I'll be doing the 3.6 also.
02-21-2014, 06:49 PM
#4
Drifting
I did the 3.6 conversion last Summer and i've been smiling ever since !
You do require some good mechanical talent and fabrication skills otherwise the cost can
climb really fast ...
Guessing about 15K alltogether,depending on the cost and condition of the new motor.
By the way,you won't fit a G50 in an SC unless you're willing to spend big $$$ on rework ...
Cheers
Phil
You do require some good mechanical talent and fabrication skills otherwise the cost can
climb really fast ...
Guessing about 15K alltogether,depending on the cost and condition of the new motor.
By the way,you won't fit a G50 in an SC unless you're willing to spend big $$$ on rework ...
Cheers
Phil
02-22-2014, 04:07 AM
#5
By the way,you won't fit a G50 in an SC unless you're willing to spend big $$$ on rework ...
Cheers
Phil[/QUOTE]
Thank you Phil for your input...I guess I will be dropping the g50 conversion.
Perhaps a bluprint, hi-comp pistons and a mild cam in the 3.0 SC may be adequate.
Cheers
Phil[/QUOTE]
Thank you Phil for your input...I guess I will be dropping the g50 conversion.
Perhaps a bluprint, hi-comp pistons and a mild cam in the 3.0 SC may be adequate.
02-22-2014, 08:42 AM
#6
Drifting
Don't pass up the thought of a 3.6 install as a 95 + engine has hyd lifters ... no more valve adjustments ... a 6800 RPM redline and does mate quite well to a 915 gearbox !
If you factor in the cost of hopping up a 3.0,you'll still be roughly 50 HP shy of a nicely set up and chipped 3.6 engine !
Cheers
Phil
If you factor in the cost of hopping up a 3.0,you'll still be roughly 50 HP shy of a nicely set up and chipped 3.6 engine !
Cheers
Phil
02-22-2014, 10:37 AM
#7
[QUOTE=blockhed;11154330]
I'd look for an OBD1 993 engine, US '95 or RoW '94-98 n/a, these aren't new anymore so plan on spending some money to go through it.
now cutting to the chassis except for a hole to run the harness from the motor to the drivers seat area
you will need a conversion harness to connect the 993 harness to the SC chassis, you will need a conversion flywheel to use w, the 915 trans, a stock 915 clutch can be used or upgraded as you see fit. I found the gearing in my '76 C3's 915 to be a tad low for my taste, but that's because of the way I used the car at the time for long commutes on the interstate. Connecting fuel is straightforward, throttle cable can be done several ways, There are conversion kits for Instant G that have all the little parts to do this. Engine tin will need to be modified. Stock fuel pump is fine.
The most work will probably go into the exhaust, you can use stock 993 headers, but them plumbing a muffler is an art, which way to go here depends on budget and noise toleration.
When done you will have a reliable fun package
Hello 911 RennLister's,
I was hoping for some advice.
Currently own an '83 911SC.
It's a tad underpowered for my taste....naturally it did not help when I drove my friends 86 911 and his 964.
If have a few questions:
1. Are there any mods /upgrades / tweaks ( other than a good tune-up ) that can be done to the SC to make it more responsive, like 84 on up Carrera's?
Hmm not much besides doing carbs, headers and exhaust. Or 3.2SS
2. A suggestion was drop a 3.6 motor and g50 trani.
Is this truly a bolt-on scenario or will it require some cutting of SC sheet metal? I do realize I would need the computer/ ECU/ brain and possibly fuel pump from 3.6. Is this conversion a common one?
3.6 with 915 is a great boost in power but you are looking at around 20k - selling your engine.
3. What is the approximate cost to buy a 3.6 these days?
depends on condition and which 3.6 964's can be had from 5k and up
993 7500+ all depends on condition
4. Is there a thread or website that documents such a conversion.
Yes and the guy that does it is an expert and does it at a reasonable cost or supplies good engines and rest of the parts plus all the info.
http://instant-g.com/Products/36Conversion/FAQs.html
Just remember its your car and do what you want with it, unless you only bought it to hold onto it and resell it later to make money
I'll be doing the 3.6 also.
I was hoping for some advice.
Currently own an '83 911SC.
It's a tad underpowered for my taste....naturally it did not help when I drove my friends 86 911 and his 964.
If have a few questions:
1. Are there any mods /upgrades / tweaks ( other than a good tune-up ) that can be done to the SC to make it more responsive, like 84 on up Carrera's?
Hmm not much besides doing carbs, headers and exhaust. Or 3.2SS
2. A suggestion was drop a 3.6 motor and g50 trani.
Is this truly a bolt-on scenario or will it require some cutting of SC sheet metal? I do realize I would need the computer/ ECU/ brain and possibly fuel pump from 3.6. Is this conversion a common one?
3.6 with 915 is a great boost in power but you are looking at around 20k - selling your engine.
3. What is the approximate cost to buy a 3.6 these days?
depends on condition and which 3.6 964's can be had from 5k and up
993 7500+ all depends on condition
4. Is there a thread or website that documents such a conversion.
Yes and the guy that does it is an expert and does it at a reasonable cost or supplies good engines and rest of the parts plus all the info.
http://instant-g.com/Products/36Conversion/FAQs.html
Just remember its your car and do what you want with it, unless you only bought it to hold onto it and resell it later to make money
I'll be doing the 3.6 also.
now cutting to the chassis except for a hole to run the harness from the motor to the drivers seat area
you will need a conversion harness to connect the 993 harness to the SC chassis, you will need a conversion flywheel to use w, the 915 trans, a stock 915 clutch can be used or upgraded as you see fit. I found the gearing in my '76 C3's 915 to be a tad low for my taste, but that's because of the way I used the car at the time for long commutes on the interstate. Connecting fuel is straightforward, throttle cable can be done several ways, There are conversion kits for Instant G that have all the little parts to do this. Engine tin will need to be modified. Stock fuel pump is fine.
The most work will probably go into the exhaust, you can use stock 993 headers, but them plumbing a muffler is an art, which way to go here depends on budget and noise toleration.
When done you will have a reliable fun package
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02-22-2014, 01:52 PM
#8
Just a different take here.
Certainly the 3.6 conversion on an SC is a well trodden road, so it's all been worked out, and works fine.
But before you jump in, understand the financial commitment you are making... once you start, you are committed to the end... don't swim halfway across the ocean, then give up and try to swim back...
If your SC is in good condition with a solid maintenance history and no problems it is probably worth about $20K retail in today's market.
(now, if it has a blown motor, that's a totally different scenario..)
Based on the input above, count on spending at least $15K on the conversion, and if you don't do most of the work, it will be more... so be realistic about your level of mechanical skill... this is not a project for the amateur, and labor-rate at a good shop will be $100+/hour.
As a data point... a friend of mine just bought an SC that had a 3.6 conversion done. The car had a known provenance, the work was professionally done by a reputable P-Car shop, and no corners were cut... bill for the conversion was reportedly north of $20K. The car is in beautiful condition.
He paid $15K for it. This guy is extremely shrewd and knowledgeable, so this means it's probably worth maybe $18-20K retail.
Math says that you will have $35-40K invested in a car that is worth maybe $20K on a good day.
Not my opinion, not my numbers... that's the market talking.
As an option... assume you sell your SC for $20K...
For $25K you could buy a nice g-50 3.2 Carrara or a 964.
For the $35-40K that you would have in the conversion, you could buy a nice 993.
All three of these cars are wonderful cars run reliably and will always be worth every dime you paid if you ever have to sell... and may even appreciate over time.
Over the last 25 years, I know many many people (including myself) who have poured tens of thousands of dollars into Porsche hot-rods, track-cars, projects etc, and end up taking a major haircut when they have to sell.
As was said, it's your car and your money. If your end-game is a 3.6 SC, and you don't have to ever sell it, go for it.
Just go into it with your eyes wide-opened.
Just like any business plan, set clear objectives, set a budget, be realistic about your resources and risk tolerance, have a contingency plan, and have a clear exit strategy.
And have fun.
Certainly the 3.6 conversion on an SC is a well trodden road, so it's all been worked out, and works fine.
But before you jump in, understand the financial commitment you are making... once you start, you are committed to the end... don't swim halfway across the ocean, then give up and try to swim back...
If your SC is in good condition with a solid maintenance history and no problems it is probably worth about $20K retail in today's market.
(now, if it has a blown motor, that's a totally different scenario..)
Based on the input above, count on spending at least $15K on the conversion, and if you don't do most of the work, it will be more... so be realistic about your level of mechanical skill... this is not a project for the amateur, and labor-rate at a good shop will be $100+/hour.
As a data point... a friend of mine just bought an SC that had a 3.6 conversion done. The car had a known provenance, the work was professionally done by a reputable P-Car shop, and no corners were cut... bill for the conversion was reportedly north of $20K. The car is in beautiful condition.
He paid $15K for it. This guy is extremely shrewd and knowledgeable, so this means it's probably worth maybe $18-20K retail.
Math says that you will have $35-40K invested in a car that is worth maybe $20K on a good day.
Not my opinion, not my numbers... that's the market talking.
As an option... assume you sell your SC for $20K...
For $25K you could buy a nice g-50 3.2 Carrara or a 964.
For the $35-40K that you would have in the conversion, you could buy a nice 993.
All three of these cars are wonderful cars run reliably and will always be worth every dime you paid if you ever have to sell... and may even appreciate over time.
Over the last 25 years, I know many many people (including myself) who have poured tens of thousands of dollars into Porsche hot-rods, track-cars, projects etc, and end up taking a major haircut when they have to sell.
As was said, it's your car and your money. If your end-game is a 3.6 SC, and you don't have to ever sell it, go for it.
Just go into it with your eyes wide-opened.
Just like any business plan, set clear objectives, set a budget, be realistic about your resources and risk tolerance, have a contingency plan, and have a clear exit strategy.
And have fun.
02-22-2014, 03:12 PM
#9
Perhaps a bluprint, hi-comp pistons and a mild cam in the 3.0 SC may be adequate.[/QUOTE]
My other post notwithstanding, to do a full 3.0L is J&E hi CR pistons, reline and hone cylinders. Head-work (sky the limit here), high-lift cams, headers, and PMO carbs... plus a full top-end rebuild... (new valve springs, timing chains, gears, tensioners, etc, etc)
$10K+ easy.
This will probably give you about 220-240 hp, but a lot of that comes in at 6-7K RPM... not a nice street motor.
I'm a crazy car guy and p*ssed away the price of a small 3-bedroom house on cars over the years, (much to my wife's regret), and love hot rods as much as anybody...
But what are your goals here?
Is this a racer, a track-car, or a weekend driver? Did you just hit the lottery?
IMHO the cheapest way to improve performance in an SC is to pull about 300 lbs of weight out (cost about $1,500 for fiberglass F/R bumpers). This is mostly bolt-out, bolt back in later.
Stock SC is rated at 180HP. A typical U.S. Spec SC weighs about 2,700lbs as delivered, or about 15 lbs/hp. A 300lb weight reduction yields 13.3 lb/hp, or the equivalent of adding about 23HP.
A good set of headers and free-flow exhaust ($1-1.5K) will give a stock SC engine about 15HP... just check your local emissions regs.
These two changes result in an "equivalent" of about 225-230HP. Plus this does not change the mid-range torque or drivability of the stock CIS engine.
If you're really hard-core, $4K for a close-ratio gearbox will give better acceleration between 20-90MPH than $10K for a hot-rod engine.
Plus, all of this stuff can be reversed if you ever decide to sell the car.
02-22-2014, 03:16 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
It's only money and if you can afford to do it why not. Enjoy the car do what's best for you.
02-22-2014, 03:42 PM
#11
02-23-2014, 08:34 AM
#12
....
This will probably give you about 220-240 hp, but a lot of that comes in at 6-7K RPM... not a nice street motor.
.......IMHO the cheapest way to improve performance in an SC is to pull about 300 lbs of weight out (cost about $1,500 for fiberglass F/R bumpers). This is mostly bolt-out, bolt back in later.
Stock SC is rated at 180HP. A typical U.S. Spec SC weighs about 2,700lbs as delivered, or about 15 lbs/hp. A 300lb weight reduction yields 13.3 lb/hp, or the equivalent of adding about 23HP.
A good set of headers and free-flow exhaust ($1-1.5K) will give a stock SC engine about 15HP... just check your local emissions regs.
These two changes result in an "equivalent" of about 225-230HP. Plus this does not change the mid-range torque or drivability of the stock CIS engine.
If you're really hard-core, $4K for a close-ratio gearbox will give better acceleration between 20-90MPH than $10K for a hot-rod engine.
Plus, all of this stuff can be reversed if you ever decide to sell the car.
This will probably give you about 220-240 hp, but a lot of that comes in at 6-7K RPM... not a nice street motor.
.......IMHO the cheapest way to improve performance in an SC is to pull about 300 lbs of weight out (cost about $1,500 for fiberglass F/R bumpers). This is mostly bolt-out, bolt back in later.
Stock SC is rated at 180HP. A typical U.S. Spec SC weighs about 2,700lbs as delivered, or about 15 lbs/hp. A 300lb weight reduction yields 13.3 lb/hp, or the equivalent of adding about 23HP.
A good set of headers and free-flow exhaust ($1-1.5K) will give a stock SC engine about 15HP... just check your local emissions regs.
These two changes result in an "equivalent" of about 225-230HP. Plus this does not change the mid-range torque or drivability of the stock CIS engine.
If you're really hard-core, $4K for a close-ratio gearbox will give better acceleration between 20-90MPH than $10K for a hot-rod engine.
Plus, all of this stuff can be reversed if you ever decide to sell the car.
one is a built 3.0SC w/ a really nice set of headers(blue), the other a stock 993 3.6(red)
Which do you think will be more fun, I can compare the 3.0 w a shorter geared 915 too, it still won't be as much fun as the 3.6
If anything the 3.6/915 is short geared
02-23-2014, 03:27 PM
#13
Thank you Bill V.!
I just thinking how lighten up the SC, after reading of the input from RL'ers who have chimed in to my post.
I was thinking lighten up ( perhaps titanium fasteners?! I saw an ad @ Classic MotorSports Magazine. The vendors sole business is selling titanium fasteners).
When I called back then I was inquiring for my 92 Miata. In the conversation he said he sell to 911 enthusiast. Back then I had a 74 Gulf Blue Carrera, and according to the registry, only 10 were produced worldwide. I opted not mess with it....in retrospect I should have, after all everything I do my cars are easily reversed.
After reading the feedback on my post my next after lossing weight may be a purchase of 3.2 then increase compression and 964 cams. The downside I may not pass smog. At least I would have the original matching # engine that I can return o stock.
Or just loss some weight and enjoy for now.
Since I am looking into a 6GT3 or a 996tt down the road.
Time will tell....
I just thinking how lighten up the SC, after reading of the input from RL'ers who have chimed in to my post.
I was thinking lighten up ( perhaps titanium fasteners?! I saw an ad @ Classic MotorSports Magazine. The vendors sole business is selling titanium fasteners).
When I called back then I was inquiring for my 92 Miata. In the conversation he said he sell to 911 enthusiast. Back then I had a 74 Gulf Blue Carrera, and according to the registry, only 10 were produced worldwide. I opted not mess with it....in retrospect I should have, after all everything I do my cars are easily reversed.
After reading the feedback on my post my next after lossing weight may be a purchase of 3.2 then increase compression and 964 cams. The downside I may not pass smog. At least I would have the original matching # engine that I can return o stock.
Or just loss some weight and enjoy for now.
Since I am looking into a 6GT3 or a 996tt down the road.
Time will tell....
02-23-2014, 07:30 PM
#15
Thank you Bill V.!
I just thinking how lighten up the SC, after reading of the input from RL'ers who have chimed in to my post.
I was thinking lighten up ( perhaps titanium fasteners?! I saw an ad @ Classic MotorSports Magazine. The vendors sole business is selling titanium fasteners).
When I called back then I was inquiring for my 92 Miata. In the conversation he said he sell to 911 enthusiast. Back then I had a 74 Gulf Blue Carrera, and according to the registry, only 10 were produced worldwide. I opted not mess with it....in retrospect I should have, after all everything I do my cars are easily reversed.
After reading the feedback on my post my next after lossing weight may be a purchase of 3.2 then increase compression and 964 cams. The downside I may not pass smog. At least I would have the original matching # engine that I can return o stock.
Or just loss some weight and enjoy for now.
Since I am looking into a 6GT3 or a 996tt down the road.
Time will tell....
I just thinking how lighten up the SC, after reading of the input from RL'ers who have chimed in to my post.
I was thinking lighten up ( perhaps titanium fasteners?! I saw an ad @ Classic MotorSports Magazine. The vendors sole business is selling titanium fasteners).
When I called back then I was inquiring for my 92 Miata. In the conversation he said he sell to 911 enthusiast. Back then I had a 74 Gulf Blue Carrera, and according to the registry, only 10 were produced worldwide. I opted not mess with it....in retrospect I should have, after all everything I do my cars are easily reversed.
After reading the feedback on my post my next after lossing weight may be a purchase of 3.2 then increase compression and 964 cams. The downside I may not pass smog. At least I would have the original matching # engine that I can return o stock.
Or just loss some weight and enjoy for now.
Since I am looking into a 6GT3 or a 996tt down the road.
Time will tell....
besides the 3.6 I use f/g bumpers, RS door cards, l/w rear spoiler, stripped out as much as I could stand while keeping the car useable as a nice weather dd.