911 with 3.6
Race Car
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,929
Likes: 70
From: Los Angeles
As a long-time owner of a 3.6-powered 911, I'd say the 3.2-liter cars are maybe the poorest choice for the swap. Why? For less money, you can build a 3.2 to equal-or-better power, and not have to deal with a lot of the 964/993 transplant issues -- or the mysteries that surround any used engine purchase.
The Carreras are pretty heavy, relative to what came before them. There's not all that much weight difference between them and the 964 and 993. And there were some real improvements that came with both the 964 and 993 that at least give you some benefit for the weight gain.
If you put a 3.6 into a lightweight early chassis, I think you get a really exceptional package. Full disclosure, I'm as biased as they come -- see the video link in my signature.
And truth be told, any of the air-cooled cars can be stripped down and modified so that they're pretty light and very nimble. So in one sense, we're talking about the same basic car from 1964 to 1989 and all of them will be a blast, stripped down, with a 3.6 in them. A re-geared G50 isn't cheap, but it's as good a transaxle as you're going to find (stock, it's geared too tall for my liking). But you've got to look at your own list of priorities, and then (assuming money is any kind of an issue) find the sweet spot between performance and cost.
The Carreras are pretty heavy, relative to what came before them. There's not all that much weight difference between them and the 964 and 993. And there were some real improvements that came with both the 964 and 993 that at least give you some benefit for the weight gain.
If you put a 3.6 into a lightweight early chassis, I think you get a really exceptional package. Full disclosure, I'm as biased as they come -- see the video link in my signature.
And truth be told, any of the air-cooled cars can be stripped down and modified so that they're pretty light and very nimble. So in one sense, we're talking about the same basic car from 1964 to 1989 and all of them will be a blast, stripped down, with a 3.6 in them. A re-geared G50 isn't cheap, but it's as good a transaxle as you're going to find (stock, it's geared too tall for my liking). But you've got to look at your own list of priorities, and then (assuming money is any kind of an issue) find the sweet spot between performance and cost.
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 198
Likes: 13
From: Munich, Germany
Jack,
Your answer surprised me. I was of the believe that it is NOT possible to squeeze significantly more horse power out of the 3.2 liter engine and that's why the only way to get them is to move to 3.6. What would you define as less money and what would the key modifications be? Over here in Germany the only thing I have found so far is replacing the DME with a new engine management system, distributor less ignition and converting to dual plugs.
Your answer surprised me. I was of the believe that it is NOT possible to squeeze significantly more horse power out of the 3.2 liter engine and that's why the only way to get them is to move to 3.6. What would you define as less money and what would the key modifications be? Over here in Germany the only thing I have found so far is replacing the DME with a new engine management system, distributor less ignition and converting to dual plugs.
Last edited by HorstP; Jul 3, 2013 at 07:18 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,492
Likes: 235
From: Montreal,Canada
Horst,
I weighed the options between modifying my 89 3.2 and installing a more modern 3.6 engine and i wisely decided to go for a 95 3.6 with hydraulic lifters,dual plugs and a safe 6800 rpm redline,not to mention an easy 80 HP upgrade with a custom SW chip and headers.
I'm sure somebody could come up with a $$$ figure that will render the same 80 HP improvement in a 3.2 engine and i can guarantee it would be around 15 K or more ... and that engine would be a hand grenade.
I just sold the 964 cams i was going to install and i still have the authotority MAF with instructions and two chips if anybody is interested !
One of my friends just installed a complete set of PMO's from Clewett in his Cabrio and that alone was close to 10K in parts with no other engine work done and he did the work himself ...
Cheers
Phil
I weighed the options between modifying my 89 3.2 and installing a more modern 3.6 engine and i wisely decided to go for a 95 3.6 with hydraulic lifters,dual plugs and a safe 6800 rpm redline,not to mention an easy 80 HP upgrade with a custom SW chip and headers.
I'm sure somebody could come up with a $$$ figure that will render the same 80 HP improvement in a 3.2 engine and i can guarantee it would be around 15 K or more ... and that engine would be a hand grenade.
I just sold the 964 cams i was going to install and i still have the authotority MAF with instructions and two chips if anybody is interested !
One of my friends just installed a complete set of PMO's from Clewett in his Cabrio and that alone was close to 10K in parts with no other engine work done and he did the work himself ...
Cheers
Phil
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 94
From: Bend, OR
Jack,
Your answer surprised me. I was of the believe that it is NOT possible to squeeze significantly more horse power out of the 3.2 liter engine and that's why the only way to get them is to move to 3.6. What would you define as less money and what would the key modifications be? Over here in Germany the only thing I have found so far is replacing the DME with a new engine management system, distributor less ignition and converting to dual plugs.
Your answer surprised me. I was of the believe that it is NOT possible to squeeze significantly more horse power out of the 3.2 liter engine and that's why the only way to get them is to move to 3.6. What would you define as less money and what would the key modifications be? Over here in Germany the only thing I have found so far is replacing the DME with a new engine management system, distributor less ignition and converting to dual plugs.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,312
Likes: 10
From: Roseville, CA
Interesting that the 3.8L in my faux 993RS (built as a no-expense spared engine by our expert posting above in this thread for its original owner) dyno'd at 315HP with the least restrictive exhaust tested. 300 with stock cat/mufflers.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,312
Likes: 10
From: Roseville, CA
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,492
Likes: 235
From: Montreal,Canada
That was the plan until i found a nice 3.6 engine with only 15 K on it ... for the sceptical experts out there,you read right ... 15K as it's been sitting in the guy's garage for the last 12 years and there aren't even any carbon deposits on the valves or guides yet.
Anybody that gets bitten by the track bug will normally try to squeeze every little bit of performance from their car as that track thing is highly addictive
After four years i just needed more power and i like the idea of having done all the work myself rather than pay some shop loads of money to do it for me !
Cheers
Phil
Anybody that gets bitten by the track bug will normally try to squeeze every little bit of performance from their car as that track thing is highly addictive
After four years i just needed more power and i like the idea of having done all the work myself rather than pay some shop loads of money to do it for me !
Cheers
Phil
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Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,312
Likes: 10
From: Roseville, CA
I merely bought the lump (car) from Ed. 3.4L still running stock intake, different cams, good exhaust, dual ignition, and Wong chip. Ed can get distracted from vacationing to elaborate further. I believe the result was ~230 wheel HP.
I've got a set of Weber 46s (yes, practically NOS ones, not that they're better than what PMO makes) that may go on for "period correctness" in the faux '73RS where the engine will eventually reside. Not that there will be any performance improvement. And a 1/3 hit in fuel economy.
I've got a set of Weber 46s (yes, practically NOS ones, not that they're better than what PMO makes) that may go on for "period correctness" in the faux '73RS where the engine will eventually reside. Not that there will be any performance improvement. And a 1/3 hit in fuel economy.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 94
From: Bend, OR
I merely bought the lump (car) from Ed. 3.4L still running stock intake, different cams, good exhaust, dual ignition, and Wong chip. Ed can get distracted from vacationing to elaborate further. I believe the result was ~230 wheel HP.
I've got a set of Weber 46s (yes, practically NOS ones, not that they're better than what PMO makes) that may go on for "period correctness" in the faux '73RS where the engine will eventually reside. Not that there will be any performance improvement. And a 1/3 hit in fuel economy.
I've got a set of Weber 46s (yes, practically NOS ones, not that they're better than what PMO makes) that may go on for "period correctness" in the faux '73RS where the engine will eventually reside. Not that there will be any performance improvement. And a 1/3 hit in fuel economy.
Race Car
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,929
Likes: 70
From: Los Angeles
Jack,
Your answer surprised me. I was of the believe that it is NOT possible to squeeze significantly more horse power out of the 3.2 liter engine and that's why the only way to get them is to move to 3.6. What would you define as less money and what would the key modifications be? Over here in Germany the only thing I have found so far is replacing the DME with a new engine management system, distributor less ignition and converting to dual plugs.
Your answer surprised me. I was of the believe that it is NOT possible to squeeze significantly more horse power out of the 3.2 liter engine and that's why the only way to get them is to move to 3.6. What would you define as less money and what would the key modifications be? Over here in Germany the only thing I have found so far is replacing the DME with a new engine management system, distributor less ignition and converting to dual plugs.
So, if you're an owner of a 1984-1989 car, you're coming to the point where most of the time you're looking at a rebuild either way. And at that point, the engine you've got sitting in your car is a known commodity as a starting point. It already works with your car, unmodified. And the club racing world has produced some 3.2-based engines that are pretty phenomenal. So if you're looking at a rebuild either way, you might as well rebuild the engine you've already got.
I'm not talking about the older cheap power bump of Steve Wong's chip, a cat bypass and a free-flowing muffler -- although that's still the best bang-for-the-buck path for a 3.2. For a pre-1996 3.6, Steve's chip, a sport muffler and a lightweight flywheel will also give things a little goose.
Of course, there are some low-mileage engines out there. But every year, that pool dries up more.
Last edited by JackOlsen; Jul 5, 2013 at 02:24 PM.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 197
Likes: 4
From: nj
i'm currently pondering the same options for my 87. the last thing i want to do is swap in another motor that will shortly need a rebuild. seems like a low mileage 3.6l would give me more power, but is an unknown when it comes to lifespan. it could be 20k miles, it could be 120k miles, before needing work. the torque is tempting, though..
