brian_l_cummings

To start off, since this is my very first posting, I should probably give some sort of introduction...My name is Brian, I am 25 years old, I am American, though I have been living in Japan for the last year and a half or so...I teach english, and I also teach political science at a junior college. I have loved the porsche marque ever since I could remember, though I have never owned one (I have come close several times) My current cars are a VW Corrado, and Rover Mini Cooper...

Now, to my question: I know there are a number of books about this subject (and I intend to order them) but I wanted to get as many opinions as I possibly could... I would like to buy a used porsche 911 when I get back to the U.S. (this April or May)...but I don't think that it is possible, I am probably dreaming...I have checked a number of car price guides (blue book, edmund's, and the like) and their quoted values do not match what I see when I look on websites like autotrader.com....IS IT POSSIBLE to buy a nice aircooled 911 (most likely a 78-83 911SC, maybe an 84-89) for $10-12K (US)??? (not interested in a targa) Would one of these cars be something that could be driven daily? are parts and repairs going to strangle me? how about reliability? I know the old sayings to buy as much as you can afford, let someone else do the restoration work, etc etc...who out there has a 78-83 911SC? do you drive it everyday? (or almost) I am hoping that I will get lots and lots of responses for this, because like I said earlier, I want lots of different opinions. If someone out there thinks that this is an impractical idea, speak out. I should probably mention that my mechanical ability is OK, but not great; bigger projects I would need help...I think I covered everything...now let the answers and opinions roll on in....

Tin Man

Nice question. I have been with a Porsche since getting a rusty 912 in 1972. I have recently used a 3.2 Carrera for 5 years as a daily driver and have kept up with most of the car's needs. I've always used private mechanics that charged about as much as a dealer but gave me more for my money.

Its very important to do your homework on these cars. For $10,000 to $12,000 you can get a nice 911SC with about 100,000 miles on it and a few blemishes. You must take your time and search far and wide for the right vehicle.

Mechanical problems can become expensive on these cars, so using it as your only car as a "daily driver" requires a bit of a commitment. What seems to help is that in spite of higher maintenance and repair costs, the cars hold their value well. Its extremely important to have the car inspected at a reputable shop (one that you plan to use) before purchase.

My guess is that finding the right car may take a few months. Expect then to spend about $2,000 to "get it right" with a full service and some minor fixes. As for yearly maintenance costs, budgeting at least $1,000 per year makes sense.

If you plan on having this car in a warm climate and require air conditioning, you will find that the AC is marginal at best in these cars. The later years and the water cooled cars have more effective AC by far.

I consider myself a "certified car nut" and have the 911 to prove it. Its a real commitment with costs similar to other newer vehicles that lose more on resale value.

I would recommend subscribing to Excellence and joining the PCA since these are very good sources of information, especially with Bruce Anderson's routine reviews of used 911 prices in Excellence.

Good luck!

Bill Gregory

I had a 911SC for around 5 years, and used it both as a daily driver, except in winter, as well as for drivers education usage on the track. I'd characterize it as very reliable transportation. Understand that when dealing with a 20+ year old vehicle, things will need attending to, but that's not Porsche-specific. Parts can be expensive. You'll quickly find out which vendors offer the best prices. You can buy Porsche parts from several dealers at 20-25% off list or cost + 15% (which is about the same as a 25% discount) and often are better prices than parts vendors, plus you get the Porsche 2 year parts warranty. Some parts you can find used. In the SC and Carrera range, there are many sources for parts, so, for the most part, availability won't be a problem.

Some books to consider. First purchase should be the Porsche publication "Porsche 911 Parts and Technical Reference 1974-1989". This $10 book lists most parts you might need, with helpful diagrams. You can buy it from Porsche or through parts vendors. Next, whether you end up with an SC or Carrera, Bentley makes a very good service manual for each which can be found for around $75 on the internet (list is $119). Of course the factory manuals, while not perfect or cheap, are some of the best sources for repair information. For the SC, you need to buy two series, the first covers 66 to around 72/73 and the second picks up and covers to 1983. Porsche doesn't like to repeat anything in it's books, so you really need both sets. They're around $175 each, as I recall. Another recent book is "101 Projects for your Porsche 911", which will give you some additional insights into work you may need to do. It's around $25-$30. Bruce Anderson's "Porsche 911 Performance Handbook" is another good read that should be on your shelf.

Bruce Anderson has always said buy the newest Porsche you can afford. I'd add, keep $2,000 (or whatever) in the bank to cover any contingencies or needed repairs. Don't forget, when looking at ads, asking prices and selling prices are often quite different. Bruce Anderson has a monthly column in Excellence where he lists asking/selling prices that people have written in about. I'd second Tin Man's suggestion to join PCA. Good group with regions around the US and Germany bringing people together to enjoy a variety of Porsche activities. Also a good source for Porsches for sale. A good source of for sale sources is the PCA Oregon regions website <a href="http://www.oregonpca.org/News/porsches_for_sale.htm" target="_blank">here.</a>

There's a 911SC FAQ on tech.rennlist.com that may be of interest, too.

Mike Kast

Read my post "Porsche books". I am just about a month in front of you as far as the questions your asking. This is my take on it. I was looking for a new car, new celica's and that sort of thing. I want a sports car! I have a 86 prelude that has some rust and a real bad paint job. Its an embarrassment! When the tree fell on it, things really got ugly.
Then, looking through want adds, I saw an old Porsche... "Hmmmm, that's not as much as I thought it would be" OK bla bla! I started asking questions like yours. I decided I want the Porsche and it is affordable. It may take more upkeep than a new car but it will hold its value as long as I don't crash it. Crashing a new car would be a problem anyway...It will also cost quite a bit less right off the bat. I have never owned a new car anyway. I don't mind supporting my local mechanic, I'm a working guy myself.
Since there is a practicality issue, I decided instead of junking the Honda, I'll do the body work to it, get a Macco paint job and not drive the Porsche in bad conditions. Although according to some posts, people are playing in the snow with their 911s.
I just got these 2 books from <a href="http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/book_catalog.htm" target="_blank">http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/book_catalog.htm</a>
*The Used 911 Story* and
*Porsche 911 Buyer's Guide*
That will keep me busy for a little while. I got some very good recommendations from my post. I think you should get one, BUT! Get a good one!
There's a lot of junk out there! Now, I'm going to go mix some bondo!
Mike Kast
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Jay H

Here's my $.02...

I think Mike has a good idea above. Keeping his Honda for the bad driving (going to the mall parking lot, foul weather, etc) and using a 911 for fun driving makes a lot of sense.

My previous 911 was an '86 that I drove about 7000-8000 miles per year (3 seasons) including going to work and other 'daily' chore driving. It was nowhere near perfect, but I still fretted over where I parked it, what kind of neighborhood I was parking in, is someone keying it, etc., etc.

It never left me stranded even with it's high mileage and was great fun. I did tire of the 915 tranny and relatively heavy clutch for rush hour traffic. But, I loved the trans and clutch for the fun driving though. The 911 A/C took the humidity out of the car on hot, humid days in the summer, but my cheesy Chevy daily driver would make ice cubes in the same weather as a comparison.

Also, depending on the shops in your area, you may not be able to get the quickest service on an older 911 than say on a new Honda, VW, Mini, Toyota, etc. It may take a few days just to get in to the shop and then if there are delays in getting parts, that can add to the wait time in getting your car back. In my area, there are only about 2 techs that I would trust my car too. My favorite shop is 90 miles away and during race season, it takes a couple weeks for them to attend to my car and get it back (though they know it's not my one and only car). Kinda tough to wait that long for your daily driver to be fixed. You can typically take a Chevy or a Honda to many more places than a Porsche for repair and get very quick service. Your area may be different though.

Over all, 911's are very bulletproof cars and with the proper regular maintenance, can be very good daily drivers. Though, I now leave my current 911 in the garage and use other vehicles for daily driving chores.

Again, just my $.02 and that isn't worth much...

Good Luck in whatever you decide,
Jay
<a href="http://www.jays911.com" target="_blank">90 964</a>

brian_l_cummings

the airconditioning thing worries me a little, but not too much...I will be in Arizona, and summertime there can be pretty brutal, but I have had cars with substandard AC there before and lived...so I guess it is not such a big deal...and although the car would be more or less a daily driver, it would not be my ONLY car, I intend for my wife to have a more 'practical' auto that I can fall back on if need be...right now I am really leaning toward the 911SC, though something newer would be nice...

Tin Man

[quote]Originally posted by brian_l_cummings:
<strong>the airconditioning thing worries me a little, but not too much...I will be in Arizona, and summertime there can be pretty brutal, but I have had cars with substandard AC there before and lived...so I guess it is not such a big deal...and although the car would be more or less a daily driver, it would not be my ONLY car, I intend for my wife to have a more 'practical' auto that I can fall back on if need be...right now I am really leaning toward the 911SC, though something newer would be nice...</strong><hr></blockquote>

There are ways to maximize the AC but they require adding an extra evaporator/condenser, probably new hoses if its an old car, perhaps a newer rotary compressor, and replacing other parts. This is a $1,000+ proposition and may still not give the performance you want. There are specific vendors that specialize in these conversions. I had mine converted to the newer refrigerant and am not completely pleased with it. There are other better refrigerants out there that can replace R12 without the hassle of changing the system. Good luck.

Bill Gregory

There are several things you can do to your air conditioning system to improve it. Allan Caldwell, in "Chill Out: 911 air conditioners" in Up-fixin der Porsche, Volume 9, p. 139, lists seven improvements:
1) Adding a front condenser, if a factory 911 doesn't have one. There is a factory kit to do this.
2) Upgrade earlier single row condenser's in the rear deck to the later factory twin row condenser.
3) Replace a York compressor with an aftermarket axial or vane compressor, for smoothness.
4) Install later dash vents in pre-1980 911's for more air flow
5) Remove the lower air divider in the cold air duct.
6) For 1978-1985 911's, install a bulkhead vent kit from Performance Aire
7) Replace the engine compartment condenser with a condenser/fan in the wheel well plus a condenser in the airflow under the body.

Tin Man

Right. I basically have all the above except for #7 in my '88 3.2 and when the AC is fully charged it is still marginal at best. Keeping it charged with R12 is expensive and the new stuff isn't as efficient. Optimizing the sytem and trying a different refrigerant perhaps would be the best way ....like Frigik (sp?) from Pennzoil.

brian_l_cummings

OK, I am going to change the question a little, and open it up a much broader topic-- How about a good 'starter' porsche? I will put it this way, I want the best porsche I can get, but it doesn't have to be a 911...Ideally, I want a 911, and again ideally, I want a 911SC...but I am also considering a 912 (912 or 912E), or a 914, or a 928 (in descending order of desire)...my perceived advantages to a 912(E)-cheaper/less complex engine, handling...disadvantages? speed, rust (912's), besides engine other parts are just as expensive as a 911...advantages of 914- cheapest aircooled porsche...disadvantages- slow...rust...
advantages of 928- relatively modern tourer, comfortable, fast...disadvantages- not an aircooled porsche...still expensive...anything to add? here's a pretty good starter resource:
<a href="http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/mult_affordable_porsches/mult_affordable_porsches.htm" target="_blank">http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/mult_affordable_porsches/mult_affordable_porsches.htm</a>

Bill Gregory

[quote]<strong>How about a good 'starter' porsche? </strong><hr></blockquote>
If you want to get into a starter Porsche, regardless of model attributes, consider a non-Turbo 944. You can get a 944 in excellent condition for $5K-$10K. Performance is good, and like all older Porsches, they are wrung out so you know what the weak points are (engine mounts, cam/timing belts, water pumps, etc).

You'll find proponents of each (914, 928, 912 in your list) that will sing the praises of each model, so you should probably post on each of those models web forum to gather input from current owners. That said, you really can't go wrong with a 911SC If nothing else, the sheer numbers of 911's sold help to keep some of the parts prices down, when compared to some of the others you're thinking about (a 928 rotor, for example, is more than twice as much as a 70-83 911 rotor, for example).

brian_l_cummings

don't want to sound snobbish, but right now I am not too interested in a 944 (though I have come very close in the past to buying one a couple of different times)...I really really want a 911SC...I have read in several different locations that it's possible to get a good one for ten large, but I have been looking online at things like autotrader/traderonline and hemming's motor news online and I am not seeing anything for less than 15 large...I am not in any hurry...maybe it's just a bad time to look...

Tin Man

Usually the lower priced cars sell quickly and are not advertised. The ads usually, IMO, represent more of a wish than a solid price. Its better to price the car from data like NADA or Excellence or your local insurance guy. If you are friendly with a dealer, they will tell you what a car will wholesale for in their area. Once you arrive at a car that will fall into your price range you can start looking and bid for one.

NADA has an online service that can give you pretty good numbers at <a href="http://www.nadaguides.com/" target="_blank">http://www.nadaguides.com/</a> and seems more realistic than the Blue Book which seems a bit higher.

brian_l_cummings

well, as of this moment the nada guide site isn't working (it works up to the point you select 'porsche' then it ****s out...)...you said the blue book was a little higher...well, I checked it...an '83 SC (coupe)with 100K miles in 'excellent' condition with every damn option is valued $10,280...

brian_l_cummings

the 'edmunds guide' is ridiculously low...it says that an 83 SC in outstanding condition, loaded up with options, is 'worth' $4650 from a private party or $6450 from a dealer...those prices are absolutely heavenly...don't think I would ever find something like that...