996 4S
05-14-2012, 04:57 PM
#1
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996 4S
I am looking at an '04 996 4S with about 44K mi. Looks very clean . Had 30K checkup. Has had 3 owners which bothers me a little.
What are the main issues that I should be concerned about before considering purchasing ? I have NO experience with Porsche.
Any help appreciated.
What are the main issues that I should be concerned about before considering purchasing ? I have NO experience with Porsche.
Any help appreciated.
05-14-2012, 06:44 PM
#2
Team Owner
Welcome to Rennlist .. your 996 is actually in the water cooled section and they will know . Before even going there though google IMS failures and settle in for some good reading ..
05-16-2012, 10:57 AM
#5
Hopefully the OP found their way to the 996 board. If not...
When this 996 was new, it was not uncommon to lease these cars for two years and then turn them in. So, three owners in 8 years is not unusual. I've never been turned off by multiple owners, but recently bought two used water cooled cars with 3 or more owners and had horrible luck. There is truth to the marketing phrase of a car being better (in most cases) with fewer owners (on these newer cars).
2004 is smack dab in the middle of the intermediate shaft bearing issues. In short, there is a shaft that runs through the middle of the case and on the flywheel end, there is a flange and bearing supporting this shaft. The shaft turns the chains for the valve train.
Porsche designed this shaft, bearing and flange poorly. The internally lubricated bearing dries out, can get contaminated and then fails. The failure typically goes unnoticed until it catastrophically fails. The bearing fails, the intermediate shaft then flops around in the flange, the chains jump the sprockets and the valve train crashes into the pistons. This can happen in a manner of seconds. The whole motor is junk at that point and dealer installed factory replacement motors are running 20,000 to 25,000 dollars.
The likely hood of this happening is slim, but there are enough cases reported on web boards and in local PCA groups that these motor issues should be considered when purchasing a 2000 to 2005 water cooled Porsche.
There are aftermarket fixes available from several companies. IMO none of these aftermarket fixes have yet to stand the test of time. Though they seem like robust designs and are definitely worth considering as preventative maintenance.
After 20 years of drinking the Porsche Kool Aide, I've learned my lesson with how problematic the M96 equipped cars are. While my opinion means nothing, I still think the years of 1999 to 2008 should be avoided when it comes to buying a used 911... The M96 motor sounds great and pulls nice, but even top level Porsche people will admit the cars built during this era were built to a price point and were not built to the typical standards you'd expect from a luxury brand.
When this 996 was new, it was not uncommon to lease these cars for two years and then turn them in. So, three owners in 8 years is not unusual. I've never been turned off by multiple owners, but recently bought two used water cooled cars with 3 or more owners and had horrible luck. There is truth to the marketing phrase of a car being better (in most cases) with fewer owners (on these newer cars).
2004 is smack dab in the middle of the intermediate shaft bearing issues. In short, there is a shaft that runs through the middle of the case and on the flywheel end, there is a flange and bearing supporting this shaft. The shaft turns the chains for the valve train.
Porsche designed this shaft, bearing and flange poorly. The internally lubricated bearing dries out, can get contaminated and then fails. The failure typically goes unnoticed until it catastrophically fails. The bearing fails, the intermediate shaft then flops around in the flange, the chains jump the sprockets and the valve train crashes into the pistons. This can happen in a manner of seconds. The whole motor is junk at that point and dealer installed factory replacement motors are running 20,000 to 25,000 dollars.
The likely hood of this happening is slim, but there are enough cases reported on web boards and in local PCA groups that these motor issues should be considered when purchasing a 2000 to 2005 water cooled Porsche.
There are aftermarket fixes available from several companies. IMO none of these aftermarket fixes have yet to stand the test of time. Though they seem like robust designs and are definitely worth considering as preventative maintenance.
After 20 years of drinking the Porsche Kool Aide, I've learned my lesson with how problematic the M96 equipped cars are. While my opinion means nothing, I still think the years of 1999 to 2008 should be avoided when it comes to buying a used 911... The M96 motor sounds great and pulls nice, but even top level Porsche people will admit the cars built during this era were built to a price point and were not built to the typical standards you'd expect from a luxury brand.
05-16-2012, 11:16 AM
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Congrats on considering the 2004 c4. Yes, the iMS bearing should be a consideration. Make sure to pay the money to have a pre-purchase inspection. One of the easiest ways to tell if the IMS is failing is to have a knowledgeable Porsche mechanic change the oil and look at the bottom of the oil pan and cut open the filter and look for metal shards. I just purchased a 2002 C4 and paid the $ to make sure I knew what I was getting myself into. Sure enough my car had some metal in the filter so I went ahead did the retrofit. Runs fine. I'd see if you can find an independent mech who works on Porsches. Much less than dealer. Knowledge was power for me. I learned a ton from the Rennlist posts.
Good luck!
Good luck!
05-16-2012, 11:18 AM
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Wrong board, vel non, I'll chime in. I drive (drove) a 2003 C4S. I bought it with 55k miles and two prior owners. I had a local (Dallas) Porsche dealership do a prepurchase inspection, which only found a couple little things that did not trouble me. Believing that the IMS issues were rarer among the 2002+ engines, I took a pass on an extended warranty.
About a month ago my IMS failed. Because I'm a fool and love my C4S, I'm having my shop put in a fully rebuilt engine. The cost, as you certainly can imagine, is very high.
In retrospect, I don't think I wouldn't have purchased the car. But I would highly recommend a good warranty.
Best of luck!
Greg
About a month ago my IMS failed. Because I'm a fool and love my C4S, I'm having my shop put in a fully rebuilt engine. The cost, as you certainly can imagine, is very high.
In retrospect, I don't think I wouldn't have purchased the car. But I would highly recommend a good warranty.
Best of luck!
Greg
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05-16-2012, 11:23 AM
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Three owners isn't bad. Obviously, one owner is better, but as Jay H said, multiple owners is not uncommon. A lot of 996s that I have seen have 5 or 6.
The IMS thing is overblown on these boards, but you need to know about it. Try not to go into shock when you see how many results you get from a search. It can be an issue from 99 through 05 (and less likely but through 08 also). The risk is small though, and things can go wrong with any car. 44k miles means this car has been driven, which is good. There is a retrofit you can have done for < 2k if it really bothers you.
Happy hunting!
The IMS thing is overblown on these boards, but you need to know about it. Try not to go into shock when you see how many results you get from a search. It can be an issue from 99 through 05 (and less likely but through 08 also). The risk is small though, and things can go wrong with any car. 44k miles means this car has been driven, which is good. There is a retrofit you can have done for < 2k if it really bothers you.
Happy hunting!
05-16-2012, 12:53 PM
#9
It's too bad this IMS issue is so expensive to make right if it goes and takes out the motor. If it was just similar to the chain tensioner issue as the pre '84 cars have, the whole thing would almost get no press... But at $20k+, it becomes a very material cost to fix. Again, it's a rare problem as compared to how many of these cars were built. As time goes by, the aftermarket fixes will most likely turn this issue into a non issue for $2k.
I think the big thing to watch on the CarFax as far as number of owners go is to watch for the "quick flip" of owner changes. If the car has several recent owners with durations measured in months, not years, that may make you wonder if there is a problem with the car that is major and new owners are trading the thing off verses spending time and money diagnosing and fixing issues. I just dumped a 997 for this very reason. That car now has 6 owners on the CarFax and the new owner may be finding out why the last owner before me and now I flipped the car after 7-10 months...
I think the big thing to watch on the CarFax as far as number of owners go is to watch for the "quick flip" of owner changes. If the car has several recent owners with durations measured in months, not years, that may make you wonder if there is a problem with the car that is major and new owners are trading the thing off verses spending time and money diagnosing and fixing issues. I just dumped a 997 for this very reason. That car now has 6 owners on the CarFax and the new owner may be finding out why the last owner before me and now I flipped the car after 7-10 months...
