Bilstein sports or Koni sports?
10-30-2002, 09:13 PM
#1
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Bilstein sports or Koni sports?
I realize that this may generate a lot of opinions, but that's why I am going to ask the question. What is the shock of choice for a 87 911 that is used primarily for DE events?
Many Thanks
Boxer 6 <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Many Thanks
Boxer 6 <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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Superdave312 (09-11-2020)
10-31-2002, 04:21 AM
#3
RL Technical Advisor
[quote]Originally posted by Boxer 6:
<strong>I realize that this may generate a lot of opinions, but that's why I am going to ask the question. What is the shock of choice for a 87 911 that is used primarily for DE events?
Many Thanks
Boxer 6
</strong><hr></blockquote>
B6:
Bilstein sports, hands down.
<strong>I realize that this may generate a lot of opinions, but that's why I am going to ask the question. What is the shock of choice for a 87 911 that is used primarily for DE events?
Many Thanks
Boxer 6
</strong><hr></blockquote>B6:
Bilstein sports, hands down.
10-31-2002, 09:18 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
Steve,
I'd like to hear why you prefer the Bilsteins. I have Koni sports in my coupe now, and I'm not too crazy about them. I'd like to hear your reasons in order to decide whether to make the investment to change over to Bilsteins. I drive my car a lot, and I autocross it. No track use. I've also thought about going with standard Bilsteins. What do you think of inserts vs. complete struts, in the standard Bilsteins?
Many thanks.
Tom
I'd like to hear why you prefer the Bilsteins. I have Koni sports in my coupe now, and I'm not too crazy about them. I'd like to hear your reasons in order to decide whether to make the investment to change over to Bilsteins. I drive my car a lot, and I autocross it. No track use. I've also thought about going with standard Bilsteins. What do you think of inserts vs. complete struts, in the standard Bilsteins?
Many thanks.
Tom
10-31-2002, 10:14 AM
#5
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Steve's recommendations should be considered golden and are based on a huge database of applications.
I only have a few data points -- my cars and the students cars I have driven.
Personally, I have Billstein Sports all around with 22/28 T-bars and drive the car on the street. I like the combination and it is not too harsh (for me) for street use. I would not consider the ride any more severe then my stock Boxster S. I had Koni Sports on previous track cars and I do not like them. To start with they needed to be adjusted nearly full hard for them to dampen stiffer springs. They did not last very long, but were "warranteed" -- Warrantee was nearly irrelevant, because car had McPherson struts and labor cost (my time) is a bigger factor. I generally have used autocross for testing, before transitioning to full time track use.
Unlike some others who have successfully made massive changes, springs, shocks, and sway bars at one time. I have made the changes progressively to document the effects of each individual change. Most interesting was stock front T-bars with 28 rears.
I have made wholesale changes to the car based on recommendations, and have generally had to back track to discover what caused the diabolical handling characteristics. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
I only have a few data points -- my cars and the students cars I have driven.
Personally, I have Billstein Sports all around with 22/28 T-bars and drive the car on the street. I like the combination and it is not too harsh (for me) for street use. I would not consider the ride any more severe then my stock Boxster S. I had Koni Sports on previous track cars and I do not like them. To start with they needed to be adjusted nearly full hard for them to dampen stiffer springs. They did not last very long, but were "warranteed" -- Warrantee was nearly irrelevant, because car had McPherson struts and labor cost (my time) is a bigger factor. I generally have used autocross for testing, before transitioning to full time track use.
Unlike some others who have successfully made massive changes, springs, shocks, and sway bars at one time. I have made the changes progressively to document the effects of each individual change. Most interesting was stock front T-bars with 28 rears.
I have made wholesale changes to the car based on recommendations, and have generally had to back track to discover what caused the diabolical handling characteristics. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
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Superdave312 (09-11-2020)
10-31-2002, 12:10 PM
#6
Hi:
I have a more centrist view ( of course!)
Both Koni and Bilstein are excellent shocks.
Here's something to consider. I had Boge hydraulics on my 85 Carrera. I didn't want to re-index the torsion bars ( a major hassle) when going to gas charged shocks. Cars should raise only 1/4-3/8"...but there have been documented reports of cars raising 1/2 to 1". So...I went with Koni, low gas pressure fronts ( red...HD...not sport)...adjustable for reboiund damping via a topside removable ****...and went with hydraulic sport rears...same adjustability. Have it set nearly full soft front...about 1/2 turn firm rear and have found it excellent for DE work. Oh....didn't require re-indexing the torsion bars !
--Wil Ferch
I have a more centrist view ( of course!)
Both Koni and Bilstein are excellent shocks.
Here's something to consider. I had Boge hydraulics on my 85 Carrera. I didn't want to re-index the torsion bars ( a major hassle) when going to gas charged shocks. Cars should raise only 1/4-3/8"...but there have been documented reports of cars raising 1/2 to 1". So...I went with Koni, low gas pressure fronts ( red...HD...not sport)...adjustable for reboiund damping via a topside removable ****...and went with hydraulic sport rears...same adjustability. Have it set nearly full soft front...about 1/2 turn firm rear and have found it excellent for DE work. Oh....didn't require re-indexing the torsion bars !
--Wil Ferch
10-31-2002, 01:27 PM
#7
RL Technical Advisor
[quote]Originally posted by Tom Frisardi:
<strong>Steve,
I'd like to hear why you prefer the Bilsteins. I have Koni sports in my coupe now, and I'm not too crazy about them. I'd like to hear your reasons in order to decide whether to make the investment to change over to Bilsteins. I drive my car a lot, and I autocross it. No track use. I've also thought about going with standard Bilsteins. What do you think of inserts vs. complete struts, in the standard Bilsteins?
Many thanks.
Tom</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Tom:
Well sir, you might have cracked open Pandora's Box a little,.......
I can only offer my opinion on this subject (which is near and dear to me) and my reply is shaped by 30+ years of experiences with modifying and racing cars; the past 28 of them exclusively 911's.
Like anyone who is as old as I happen to be, I've used Koni's for years when there was nothing else and they were the very best shocks you could get your hands on. This was long before ITT bought them. Always mixed results, some good and some bad, but it never mattered because there were no other choices.
When Porsche started using Bilsteins as one of the two Sport Shock options in the mid-seventies, we started noticing a distinct difference in the life and performance of 911's equipped with these two shocks; Bilstein's lasted a lot longer and Bilstein-equipped cars had a much lower rate of replacement due to leakage & wear. At that time, both manufacturers permitted shops to replace shocks on warranty and not have to send them back for the warranty.
From then until the present, in our experiences, Bilsteins outlast Koni's 4:1 and they perform better, even though you can adjust the rebound on the Koni. IMHO, when ITT bought Koni, something changed,.....the product's quality control was not the same.
Just my own observation but I also found better ride quality with Bilstein over Koni, all things being equal, and especially when one stiffened the Koni's up.
At the present, Bilstein offers some advantages over Koni in terms of flexibility to modify the front end, namely the ability to relocate the front spindle for better bump steer, more travel, and better roll center location. The upside down layout of the Bilstein strut permits one to safely modify the spindle height to wherever we need. Further, that same design lessens unsprung weight which is a good thing,...
Bilstein will revalve struts & shocks to our specification and its a simple, reasonably priced service. They'll even do the new PSS-9's with different damping curves for use, too. In one example, we have them do a special RSR strut & shock with our own damping and a 19mm higher spindle (normal RSR is 12mm higher).
In summary, I use and recommend Bilsteins over Koni for:
1) Overall performance
2) Total flexibility; valving, length & ride height
3) Reasonable pricing
4) Better ride; all things being the same
My deepest apologies for the protracted reply, but this subject is one that I feel strongly about as shocks are SOOO critical to suspension performance and handling. Everyone who reads this will have an different opinion based upon their own experience and this simply happens to be mine. I know there are many good street & race cars out there using Koni shocks with excellent success.
People who want the very best handling 911 thats possible, will use either Moton, JRZ, Penske, or Ohlin shocks,......these are a whole 'nuther dimension,...
LOL,..I'll bet you are sorry you asked,...
<strong>Steve,
I'd like to hear why you prefer the Bilsteins. I have Koni sports in my coupe now, and I'm not too crazy about them. I'd like to hear your reasons in order to decide whether to make the investment to change over to Bilsteins. I drive my car a lot, and I autocross it. No track use. I've also thought about going with standard Bilsteins. What do you think of inserts vs. complete struts, in the standard Bilsteins?
Many thanks.
Tom</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Tom:
Well sir, you might have cracked open Pandora's Box a little,.......
I can only offer my opinion on this subject (which is near and dear to me) and my reply is shaped by 30+ years of experiences with modifying and racing cars; the past 28 of them exclusively 911's.
Like anyone who is as old as I happen to be,
I've used Koni's for years when there was nothing else and they were the very best shocks you could get your hands on. This was long before ITT bought them. Always mixed results, some good and some bad, but it never mattered because there were no other choices. When Porsche started using Bilsteins as one of the two Sport Shock options in the mid-seventies, we started noticing a distinct difference in the life and performance of 911's equipped with these two shocks; Bilstein's lasted a lot longer and Bilstein-equipped cars had a much lower rate of replacement due to leakage & wear. At that time, both manufacturers permitted shops to replace shocks on warranty and not have to send them back for the warranty.
From then until the present, in our experiences, Bilsteins outlast Koni's 4:1 and they perform better, even though you can adjust the rebound on the Koni. IMHO, when ITT bought Koni, something changed,.....the product's quality control was not the same.
Just my own observation but I also found better ride quality with Bilstein over Koni, all things being equal, and especially when one stiffened the Koni's up.
At the present, Bilstein offers some advantages over Koni in terms of flexibility to modify the front end, namely the ability to relocate the front spindle for better bump steer, more travel, and better roll center location. The upside down layout of the Bilstein strut permits one to safely modify the spindle height to wherever we need. Further, that same design lessens unsprung weight which is a good thing,...
Bilstein will revalve struts & shocks to our specification and its a simple, reasonably priced service. They'll even do the new PSS-9's with different damping curves for use, too. In one example, we have them do a special RSR strut & shock with our own damping and a 19mm higher spindle (normal RSR is 12mm higher).
In summary, I use and recommend Bilsteins over Koni for:
1) Overall performance
2) Total flexibility; valving, length & ride height
3) Reasonable pricing
4) Better ride; all things being the same
My deepest apologies for the protracted reply, but this subject is one that I feel strongly about as shocks are SOOO critical to suspension performance and handling. Everyone who reads this will have an different opinion based upon their own experience and this simply happens to be mine. I know there are many good street & race cars out there using Koni shocks with excellent success.
People who want the very best handling 911 thats possible, will use either Moton, JRZ, Penske, or Ohlin shocks,......these are a whole 'nuther dimension,...
LOL,..I'll bet you are sorry you asked,...
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10-31-2002, 07:34 PM
#9
I tried to be as unbiased as possible on the subject, even though I run Bilstein Sports all around in my sc with 23/30 torsion bars. They dampen those bars well. But there are some interesting facts on Bilstein. Because of their monotube desing, they have a inherent ability to cool themselves much better than a conventional twin tube design. One of the main reasons is that all the oil is in contact with the outside body of the shock itself, which greatly aids in cooling the unit. So Bilsteins run much cooler. And since the nitrogen is completely separated from the oil, you have no aeration or cavitation under high stress. So they never soften up under high stress. Bilstein has a great write-up on the subject at <a href="http://www.bilstein.com/products/basics.html." target="_blank">www.bilstein.com/products/basics.html.</a> Bilstein is also widely recommended as the budget shock of choice for rallying since that is the biggest abuse a shock will ever see. For rallying, unless someone can afford Ohlins, Bilsteins are the only way to go. I don't remember seeing many Konis at the last Prescott Forest Rally. I also think Bilstein is doing a great job lately when it comes to customer satisfaction with services as rebuilding, custom valving and dyno testing if necessary. In my car, I have done some abusive things to my shocks and they have come through unscathed. I don't run a rubber snubber in the front so that I can have extra travel in a lowered car. I can get away with this because I run 23mm torsion bars in the front. But there have been times when the shocks have bottomed. And without snubbers, I can hear it. But amazingly, they are still in good shape. While I don't recommend this, I would not do it with any other shock. Bilsteins are tough.
It seems in the old days, Koni was the performance and club racing shock of choice, while Bilsteins were the durable ones. And when someone wanted to go do some real Racing, they used either Koni's or the much more costly Penskes or Carreras. For rallying, one used Bilstein or remote reservoir Ohlins if they had a lot of money. Now, since Bilstein has gone more performance oriented while still being the most durable, they are probably the performance and racing shock of choice. For higer end racing, one must go to either JRZ or Moton with remote reservoirs, which are a lot like the Ohlins. Ohlins is still the ultimate rally shock. But Ohlins, JRZ and Moton are remote reservoir units that cost in the thousands of dollars for a full setup. Definetely out of range for the common application. For the usual club racing, autocross, street stuff, Bilstein or Koni are the way to go.
Worthy of note, Bilstein is now getting into remote reservoir units for the high end applications. Not that I need it, but they are there. Another tidbit, but of no importance, Bilstein is also a little different as a company when compared to all the others I listed. They are a German company. All the others are based in the Netherlands.
I too, like Steve, have a bias towards Bilstein. And in my biased opinion, you can't go wrong with Bilstein.
It seems in the old days, Koni was the performance and club racing shock of choice, while Bilsteins were the durable ones. And when someone wanted to go do some real Racing, they used either Koni's or the much more costly Penskes or Carreras. For rallying, one used Bilstein or remote reservoir Ohlins if they had a lot of money. Now, since Bilstein has gone more performance oriented while still being the most durable, they are probably the performance and racing shock of choice. For higer end racing, one must go to either JRZ or Moton with remote reservoirs, which are a lot like the Ohlins. Ohlins is still the ultimate rally shock. But Ohlins, JRZ and Moton are remote reservoir units that cost in the thousands of dollars for a full setup. Definetely out of range for the common application. For the usual club racing, autocross, street stuff, Bilstein or Koni are the way to go.
Worthy of note, Bilstein is now getting into remote reservoir units for the high end applications. Not that I need it, but they are there. Another tidbit, but of no importance, Bilstein is also a little different as a company when compared to all the others I listed. They are a German company. All the others are based in the Netherlands.
I too, like Steve, have a bias towards Bilstein. And in my biased opinion, you can't go wrong with Bilstein.
10-31-2002, 07:51 PM
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I'm interested in this thread too, I just replaced the stock Boge rears w/ Bilstein Sports in addition to putting on Yokohama AVS ES100's on all 4 wheels. Sometime in the near future, after I've had a chance to evaluate these changes, I'd like to upgrade the Boge struts, either w/ Bilstein Inserts or entire replacement struts.
For a car that is primarly a street car, though I do intend to do DE events and maybe a few track events, what are the recommendations?
TIA, Bill W.
For a car that is primarly a street car, though I do intend to do DE events and maybe a few track events, what are the recommendations?
TIA, Bill W.
10-31-2002, 11:32 PM
#11
Weathergirl
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[quote]For rallying, unless someone can afford Ohlins, Bilsteins are the only way to go.<hr></blockquote>
Wow, that one really caught my eye! The only people still rallying on Bilsteins are running 20 year old VW Rabbits. DMS owns the middle of the market now at about $6-700 a corner (including springs). Ohlins and Proflex are for the guys who can spend $2000 a corner. Even the lowest budget teams have realized than upgrading from Bilsteins to real rally struts is worth several seconds a mile.
DMS makes their 50mm Super Strut coilovers for 964s and 993s, but nothing for older Porsches unfortunately. They're built like a tank, have independently adjustable compression and rebound, and DMS will valve them however you like and even provide longer or shorter bodies depending on your purpose.
FWIW, I have Bilsteins in an Audi and a Subaru (via Prodrive), and I'll probably end up with them in the 911, too, once I get around to the suspension...
Steve, does Rennsport offer a direct front conversion from Koni struts to Bilsteins? Is there anything to change other than the strut itself?
Wow, that one really caught my eye! The only people still rallying on Bilsteins are running 20 year old VW Rabbits. DMS owns the middle of the market now at about $6-700 a corner (including springs). Ohlins and Proflex are for the guys who can spend $2000 a corner. Even the lowest budget teams have realized than upgrading from Bilsteins to real rally struts is worth several seconds a mile.
DMS makes their 50mm Super Strut coilovers for 964s and 993s, but nothing for older Porsches unfortunately. They're built like a tank, have independently adjustable compression and rebound, and DMS will valve them however you like and even provide longer or shorter bodies depending on your purpose.
FWIW, I have Bilsteins in an Audi and a Subaru (via Prodrive), and I'll probably end up with them in the 911, too, once I get around to the suspension...
Steve, does Rennsport offer a direct front conversion from Koni struts to Bilsteins? Is there anything to change other than the strut itself?
11-01-2002, 01:54 AM
#12
RL Technical Advisor
[quote]Originally posted by Tom Frisardi:
<strong>Great answer, and thank you, Steve. Do you see any advantage to changing out the entire strut, as opposed to the insert alone?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Tom:
The only advantage for you is that if you plan on lowering the car as far as is practical, the Bilstein struts permit the spindles to be raised to restore that lost suspension travel after lowering. You cannot do that very well with Boge struts as the tube deforms very easily when the spindle is pushed up, and tend to warp when rewelded. If these things happen, the Bilstein insert will no longer fit into the tube.
Answer: It depends upon your long-term plans,...
<strong>Great answer, and thank you, Steve. Do you see any advantage to changing out the entire strut, as opposed to the insert alone?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Tom:
The only advantage for you is that if you plan on lowering the car as far as is practical, the Bilstein struts permit the spindles to be raised to restore that lost suspension travel after lowering. You cannot do that very well with Boge struts as the tube deforms very easily when the spindle is pushed up, and tend to warp when rewelded. If these things happen, the Bilstein insert will no longer fit into the tube.
Answer: It depends upon your long-term plans,...
11-01-2002, 02:05 AM
#13
RL Technical Advisor
[quote]Originally posted by Rally185:
<strong>
(snip)
Steve, does Rennsport offer a direct front conversion from Koni struts to Bilsteins? Is there anything to change other than the strut itself?</strong><hr></blockquote>
R185:
Yessir, we do and I've got several options,.... As I refrain from doing any business on Rennlist, you may contact me directly for more information,...
One must change the strut and the spindle nut as Koni & Bilstein use different size ones and they are not interchangeable. Depending upon the year of car, sometimes the front ball joints must be changed to the later ('72-on) ones.
<strong>
(snip)
Steve, does Rennsport offer a direct front conversion from Koni struts to Bilsteins? Is there anything to change other than the strut itself?</strong><hr></blockquote>
R185:
Yessir, we do and I've got several options,....
As I refrain from doing any business on Rennlist, you may contact me directly for more information,... One must change the strut and the spindle nut as Koni & Bilstein use different size ones and they are not interchangeable. Depending upon the year of car, sometimes the front ball joints must be changed to the later ('72-on) ones.
11-02-2002, 02:08 AM
#15
RL Technical Advisor
[quote]Originally posted by Rally185:
<strong>I e-mailed you, Steve, but got an odd error message from your mail server. Did you get the e-mail?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi:
No I didn't, and whats strange is that I received no e-mail today whatsoever.
That has not happened in 4 years.
Do you remember exactly what the error message said?
<strong>I e-mailed you, Steve, but got an odd error message from your mail server. Did you get the e-mail?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi:
No I didn't, and whats strange is that I received no e-mail today whatsoever.
That has not happened in 4 years.
Do you remember exactly what the error message said?