New clicking after valve adjustment
#16
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Rus, I searched for a DIY on this with no good references. I may need to dig further. This is an easy check to perform and also to adjust. If one knows what to feel for, it can be done with your fingers and not even having to "look" at it.
The rocker should wobble back and forth around the area of the rocker shaft located in the middle of the shaft. Meaning the rocker should be centered on the shaft. The deception here is that the shaft "bosses" in the cam tower are thicker on one side of the rocker, but the thick boss is on the opposite end of the shaft on the other bank of cylinders. In short, the rocker shaft is rear-centric on one side of the engine, and forward centric on the other side albeit the shaft is divided evenly by the rocker itself. I don't recall which bank is which.
To relocate a shaft that has migrated in either direction is pretty simple. The worst part is getting the required allen wrench to fit the binder bolt. I have a garden variety allen wrench of the correct size(5mm, maybe 6) that I cut short at the bend to fit in the tight quarters of the binder bolt. The binder can be loosened and the rocker can be relocated forward or rearward then tightened with the said allen.
Snafu #1: the cylinder being observed must be at TDC before the rocker can be moved, otherwise the cam has it loaded with valve spring pressure. Thats one reason this is good practice during a valve adjust.
Snafu#2: the binder bolt is not loosening/tightening without turning the entire rocker shaft. For this, the binder has an allen wrench provision at it's opposite end for countering...requireing another short allen wrench.
My disclaimer: My info here is from memory and it's been a while since I've been inside one of these motors, thus my intentional lack of details. Details like when do you know the shaft is centered? IIRC, the end of the shaft should be flush with the exterior of the short/thin boss in the cam tower. Tool selection may be open for debate, also which end do you loosen, and which do you counter upon (it's not hard to tell). So, I would encourage anyone in audience of this post to seek another reference, or maybe someone with better working knowledge will clarify. Ed, you just did this on the 3.4,no? A Bentley manual may help, though I never used one. The FSM will be the last word.
Shifted rocker shafts are not uncommon, but not an everyday occurrence either. I have had numerous cars that had this situation, and a 930 that altogether dropped a rocker. One indicator of a loose/migrated shaft is an oil leak in the area of the head/cam housing union - or the area above the heat exchanger around the oil return tubes. There may also be an audible ticking for extreme cases.
For me, this was always a part of a valve adjustment, and I would happily return any shifting rocker shafts for no charge to the customer. It's very easy, and may prevent major top end damage, win/win/win for the mechanic/car/customer.
I hope others will post to clarify my abstract here. I have to imagine this is covered in other threads and I will search. I'll post a link if I find one.
The rocker should wobble back and forth around the area of the rocker shaft located in the middle of the shaft. Meaning the rocker should be centered on the shaft. The deception here is that the shaft "bosses" in the cam tower are thicker on one side of the rocker, but the thick boss is on the opposite end of the shaft on the other bank of cylinders. In short, the rocker shaft is rear-centric on one side of the engine, and forward centric on the other side albeit the shaft is divided evenly by the rocker itself. I don't recall which bank is which.
To relocate a shaft that has migrated in either direction is pretty simple. The worst part is getting the required allen wrench to fit the binder bolt. I have a garden variety allen wrench of the correct size(5mm, maybe 6) that I cut short at the bend to fit in the tight quarters of the binder bolt. The binder can be loosened and the rocker can be relocated forward or rearward then tightened with the said allen.
Snafu #1: the cylinder being observed must be at TDC before the rocker can be moved, otherwise the cam has it loaded with valve spring pressure. Thats one reason this is good practice during a valve adjust.
Snafu#2: the binder bolt is not loosening/tightening without turning the entire rocker shaft. For this, the binder has an allen wrench provision at it's opposite end for countering...requireing another short allen wrench.
My disclaimer: My info here is from memory and it's been a while since I've been inside one of these motors, thus my intentional lack of details. Details like when do you know the shaft is centered? IIRC, the end of the shaft should be flush with the exterior of the short/thin boss in the cam tower. Tool selection may be open for debate, also which end do you loosen, and which do you counter upon (it's not hard to tell). So, I would encourage anyone in audience of this post to seek another reference, or maybe someone with better working knowledge will clarify. Ed, you just did this on the 3.4,no? A Bentley manual may help, though I never used one. The FSM will be the last word.
Shifted rocker shafts are not uncommon, but not an everyday occurrence either. I have had numerous cars that had this situation, and a 930 that altogether dropped a rocker. One indicator of a loose/migrated shaft is an oil leak in the area of the head/cam housing union - or the area above the heat exchanger around the oil return tubes. There may also be an audible ticking for extreme cases.
For me, this was always a part of a valve adjustment, and I would happily return any shifting rocker shafts for no charge to the customer. It's very easy, and may prevent major top end damage, win/win/win for the mechanic/car/customer.
I hope others will post to clarify my abstract here. I have to imagine this is covered in other threads and I will search. I'll post a link if I find one.
I know that when we had to drop my engine to address the #1 plug threads, we went ahead and installed (RSR?) O-rings throughout. I often wondered about this, yet many RL's have done it and is noted to be a good thing to do. Maybe someone (mechanical) can relay why this is so?
I've heard that when rocker shafts walk a bit, one can experience more oil leak...true? If so, wouldn't the o-ring impede (reduce) the ability to see oil leaks related to rocker shafts?
Curious..........and no, I'm not a mechanic. But I do like chasing electrons.....
Doyle
#18
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I think the biggest adversion to the o-rings is getting them installed without damaging them. It can and has been done with the aid of silicon paste (dow 111) to many times to count. I would refrain from creating mass hysteria in this thread, but some will argue that rocker shafts that leak and wander around is a sign of permanant damage to the cam towers. Lets not go there right now, but they can be reset and tightened with no signs of damage. A properly owned and maintained motor may need it's rockers snugged tight at some point in it's life...it doesn't mean the engine is shot or needs a complete rebuild. I'll be looking for a good tutorial on this in a little while.
I'll answer your questions directly then Doyle, or at least give you my take on it right or wrong.
I'll answer your questions directly then Doyle, or at least give you my take on it right or wrong.
#19
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Thanks, Bird.
Yes, I'm quite aware of the contents regarding these Orings in Wayne's great book.
As to rocker shafts,..it's well known (and has been mentioned by a few P-wrenches) that the retorque value on these should be a bit higher than what the book calls for.....I'll leave the follow-up comments on this to experts...THIS, does, however, spark in interest in where one finally torques the 1989 rocker shaft. no? Spec may not cut it anymore, with time. Of course one could suggest (simply) changing it out if it "walks" more than once at torque.....those torque threads ring in my mind....I've not had this level of relation (discussion) with my P-wrench (my bad) but AM interested in looking myself,..AHHHHHHH,..the reason for owning one?
My rings went in just fine (I was told)..
Is it the "movement" that attacks the cam? Or the adjustment? Guess I need to review.....again: NOT a mechanic here.
Dunno,..thanks to all.
Doyle
Yes, I'm quite aware of the contents regarding these Orings in Wayne's great book.
As to rocker shafts,..it's well known (and has been mentioned by a few P-wrenches) that the retorque value on these should be a bit higher than what the book calls for.....I'll leave the follow-up comments on this to experts...THIS, does, however, spark in interest in where one finally torques the 1989 rocker shaft. no? Spec may not cut it anymore, with time. Of course one could suggest (simply) changing it out if it "walks" more than once at torque.....those torque threads ring in my mind....I've not had this level of relation (discussion) with my P-wrench (my bad) but AM interested in looking myself,..AHHHHHHH,..the reason for owning one?
My rings went in just fine (I was told)..
Is it the "movement" that attacks the cam? Or the adjustment? Guess I need to review.....again: NOT a mechanic here.
Dunno,..thanks to all.
Doyle
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Ivangene, it could be my fat fingers, but I always struggle to slide the shim in on a set valve. Perhaps I'm lazy, but have found it easier to open the set screw, seat the shim, and then tighten back up.
WB: thanks for the advice on the rocker shafts. I'll take a look and see where I'm at when I head back in.
Syzygy: good call on lifting one side. I'm slightly paranoid of dumping 10 qts on the floor - figure a 10 minute drain is easier than a cleanup from a screw-up (which I'm clearly prone to after mucking up the adjustment). But all in all, there are worse things in life than tearing into a p-car!
WB: thanks for the advice on the rocker shafts. I'll take a look and see where I'm at when I head back in.
Syzygy: good call on lifting one side. I'm slightly paranoid of dumping 10 qts on the floor - figure a 10 minute drain is easier than a cleanup from a screw-up (which I'm clearly prone to after mucking up the adjustment). But all in all, there are worse things in life than tearing into a p-car!
#21
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You'll only dump the 10 quarts if you remove the plug from the tank. You can drain only the sump and get about three quarts, or just tip the car to one side and after the oil drains to the other side, remove the valve cover. Most change the oil at the time of the adjust so to drain all the oil is just the thing to do. You already just did that, so to drain it all again seems kinda silly...
#22
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I find it tough, or maybe better-it is a waste of time to try and slide a gauge in to check lash. I loosen the elephant foot, stick the shim in, and then tighten to my feel. I've also been spraying PB blaster in to wash the oil film off the rocker and cam lobe prior to doing this. Afterward, you need to squirt some oil in to relube the rocker-cam before starting the motor.
The rockers are not centered-IIRC, the bolt head end is recessed in the bore maybe 2-2.5mm. I torqued on the nut-not the bolt head, again from memory. I also torqued to about 3 ft-lbs more on the factory specs.I believe there is a consensus that this is not a bad thing to do when re-assembling an engine with original rocker shafts. I did do the "RSR O-rings" when I built my engine to help ensure no leaks.
The rockers are not centered-IIRC, the bolt head end is recessed in the bore maybe 2-2.5mm. I torqued on the nut-not the bolt head, again from memory. I also torqued to about 3 ft-lbs more on the factory specs.I believe there is a consensus that this is not a bad thing to do when re-assembling an engine with original rocker shafts. I did do the "RSR O-rings" when I built my engine to help ensure no leaks.
#23
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I agree with Ed. I have a drawer full of badly bent blades. I never felt very confident of my valve adjustments until I got one of these tools. The principal of the tool is that you can precisely set the correct gap based on the how far (degrees) you turn the screwdriver. I have now done two with it. I checked every gap after I set them with the tool. It was always correct. In fact, it was so consistently accurate that I felt that confirming the gap was a waste of time. I just found it difficult to get the drag correct, then tighten the bolt without moving the screw, and doing it all be feel. The tool lets you see that your settings didn't move. The guy calls the tool the VAS-911
VAS Video
VAS Video