Late 80’s or Early 90’s 911 – That Is The Question.
02-14-2002 | 11:17 AM
#1
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Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Dallas TX
Late 80’s or Early 90’s 911 – That Is The Question.
Hi Everyone,
I am currently starting the process of buying my first Porsche. As a first step I am trying to decide which model to target. Most sources that I have seen say basically to get the newest Porsche that you can afford. In my case that limits me to something older than 94. However, I found the following posted on a dealer sponsored message board. This statement is not entirely positive concerning the early 90s 911’s.
"The late 89-94 Porsche 911's are very nice cars. Very fast and very reliable. Although they are by far the most expensive and problematic of all. They are a little notorious for leaking oil, which sometimes can be very costly. Routine maintenance is also very expensive. A 15k or 30k service is almost always over $1100.00. Look at alot of different cars. Always do a pre-purchase inspection at a reliable source before purchasing the car. Spending time finding the right one is the key. Be patient. Good luck.
The 84-early 89 911 is the way to go. These cars will sell from about 13k to over 30k depending on the year and options. These cars are in high demand and will take some time looking to find the proper one. The most desirable is the 87-89 because of a major improvement in the gearbox. An 87-89 911 in good condition you will probably not find for under 25k unless it is very high mileage and/or a little rough."
How would you compare the 87-early89 with the late 89 – 94?
Many thanks,
Jeff
I am currently starting the process of buying my first Porsche. As a first step I am trying to decide which model to target. Most sources that I have seen say basically to get the newest Porsche that you can afford. In my case that limits me to something older than 94. However, I found the following posted on a dealer sponsored message board. This statement is not entirely positive concerning the early 90s 911’s.
"The late 89-94 Porsche 911's are very nice cars. Very fast and very reliable. Although they are by far the most expensive and problematic of all. They are a little notorious for leaking oil, which sometimes can be very costly. Routine maintenance is also very expensive. A 15k or 30k service is almost always over $1100.00. Look at alot of different cars. Always do a pre-purchase inspection at a reliable source before purchasing the car. Spending time finding the right one is the key. Be patient. Good luck.
The 84-early 89 911 is the way to go. These cars will sell from about 13k to over 30k depending on the year and options. These cars are in high demand and will take some time looking to find the proper one. The most desirable is the 87-89 because of a major improvement in the gearbox. An 87-89 911 in good condition you will probably not find for under 25k unless it is very high mileage and/or a little rough."
How would you compare the 87-early89 with the late 89 – 94?
Many thanks,
Jeff
02-14-2002 | 12:47 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,323
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From: INDY
jlight:
Well i have owned both years you ask about.
1993 911 RS AMERCIA
1989 and 1988 911 Carrera
1st the RS , I bought the RS because the 93 and above years suppposed to have less problems. Well i didnot have any oil leaks but boy did i have prolems! The car started to shut on and off while i was driving. My mechanic searched for a problem but could not find anything. He had some ideas but i really did not want to shot gun his ideas. Well about year later the cars battery exploded causing a small fire under the hood.
Both the alternator and some of the brains were destroyed beside what the small fire did. (atleast the fire went out by itself) ($3.5k worth)
My mechanic thought the battery was the problem but like other 964s he said they are an electrical nightmare. He said you will see 964 batteries drain till they are dead.
He told me get ride of the 964 because of the problem i am going to list now!
Weak head stud , not the problem of the 2.7 engine
breaking. The studs are to weak causing the heads to float around causing them to wear out!
Valve spring too weak, Probably he said most of the 964 out there with 20-30k miles on them need a rebuild (an entire rebuild , top to bottom)
Most 911 only need a top end rebuild for the 1st rebuild but he is breaking down 964's and they are having big problems.
I am sure you will find 964's with more miles that seem to be ok but they are starting to slow down because of the few problems i written above.
1988 and 1989 i had , both were great cars but you will need to insure the clutch has been replaced. All G50 911's have a rubber clutch disc that will deterate causing clutch failure!
My 1988 done that with only 66k miles on her.
Of course with age you are going to have to replace rubber parts such as oil main lines , gas lines,seals & return tubes.
If you want a 911 please have an extra 2 grand for any problems.
Find a 1984 - 1989 with atleast the oil return tubes replaced and the clutch done. Please have it inspected and dont buy the 911 from a dealer unless it has all the orginal documents.
Good luck (hope i did not make the 964 guys mad)
I loved my 964 but it was a money pit
jpc
Well i have owned both years you ask about.
1993 911 RS AMERCIA
1989 and 1988 911 Carrera
1st the RS , I bought the RS because the 93 and above years suppposed to have less problems. Well i didnot have any oil leaks but boy did i have prolems! The car started to shut on and off while i was driving. My mechanic searched for a problem but could not find anything. He had some ideas but i really did not want to shot gun his ideas. Well about year later the cars battery exploded causing a small fire under the hood.
Both the alternator and some of the brains were destroyed beside what the small fire did. (atleast the fire went out by itself) ($3.5k worth)
My mechanic thought the battery was the problem but like other 964s he said they are an electrical nightmare. He said you will see 964 batteries drain till they are dead.
He told me get ride of the 964 because of the problem i am going to list now!
Weak head stud , not the problem of the 2.7 engine
breaking. The studs are to weak causing the heads to float around causing them to wear out!
Valve spring too weak, Probably he said most of the 964 out there with 20-30k miles on them need a rebuild (an entire rebuild , top to bottom)
Most 911 only need a top end rebuild for the 1st rebuild but he is breaking down 964's and they are having big problems.
I am sure you will find 964's with more miles that seem to be ok but they are starting to slow down because of the few problems i written above.
1988 and 1989 i had , both were great cars but you will need to insure the clutch has been replaced. All G50 911's have a rubber clutch disc that will deterate causing clutch failure!
My 1988 done that with only 66k miles on her.
Of course with age you are going to have to replace rubber parts such as oil main lines , gas lines,seals & return tubes.
If you want a 911 please have an extra 2 grand for any problems.
Find a 1984 - 1989 with atleast the oil return tubes replaced and the clutch done. Please have it inspected and dont buy the 911 from a dealer unless it has all the orginal documents.
Good luck (hope i did not make the 964 guys mad)
I loved my 964 but it was a money pit
jpc
02-14-2002 | 03:04 PM
#3
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From: San Jose, CA
I'd like to give a second, and very different, opinion regarding 964's.
I've owned a 1990 964 for 4 and a half years. It is approaching 88,000 miles and is running great!It's hardly been a money pit.
The Big Three problems of early 964's are:
1 - The lack of cylinder head gasket caused leakage in a minority of the cars. A lot of those that exhibited the symptoms were fixed by Porsche under warranty. I think Porsche started putting the re-designed engines with the gasket in during the '91 model year.
2 - Dual mass flywheel problems. Many early 964's have had their flywheel replaced with a single mass or Luk unit. I think the '92 964's came with a Luk flywheel from the factory.
3 - Distributor belt breakage. The belt should have been replaced by now. Make sure the distributor has been vented.
I haven't heard of the weak head stud or valve spring problem. You might ask the folks on the 964 board if they've had any problems. Or if they've had their engines rebuilt and what was found.
As far as electrical problems go, I had one -- which was caused by a cracked spark plug boot. Some have noted that there is a drain, often caused by the alarm. Not sure if this qualifies the 964 series as electrical nightmares.
I would need to check my receipts, but I certainly don't recall paying over $1000 for a 15k mile service. The 30k service, yes -- valve adjustment, spark plug replacement, etc.
The '84 - '89 Carreras are great cars too! As JPC mentioned, do watch out for the clutch, and also watch for premature valve guide wear, especially in the '87 - '89 model years.
Whichever car you decide on, I think it goes without saying to get it thoroughly checked out!
The 964 series offers some advantages over the '84 - '89 Carreras. You get a coil over suspension, a 3.6 liter engine (with dual plugs), power-assisted steering (not everyone appreciates this upgrade -- drive both and see which you prefer), ABS, dual airbags on the US models, an updated heating/AC system, backlit guages, and slightly updated interior.
Styling -- the 964 had been put down for its styling, but now I see messages from a few people wanting to update their older 911 to the 964 look. Go figure! It's a subjective thing -- obvioiusly there's no right answer as to which is best.
My advice? Drive examples from both vintages to decide which style appeals to you the most. Find a good mechanic in your area and ask him what his experience is on 964's vs. the Carreras. See what he would charge to do the various services.
Good luck!
-- Melissa
PS John Miles has a great site for 964's, with people's "Running Reports." <a href="http://www.porsche964.co.uk/" target="_blank">John Miles 964 Site</a>
I've owned a 1990 964 for 4 and a half years. It is approaching 88,000 miles and is running great!It's hardly been a money pit.
The Big Three problems of early 964's are:
1 - The lack of cylinder head gasket caused leakage in a minority of the cars. A lot of those that exhibited the symptoms were fixed by Porsche under warranty. I think Porsche started putting the re-designed engines with the gasket in during the '91 model year.
2 - Dual mass flywheel problems. Many early 964's have had their flywheel replaced with a single mass or Luk unit. I think the '92 964's came with a Luk flywheel from the factory.
3 - Distributor belt breakage. The belt should have been replaced by now. Make sure the distributor has been vented.
I haven't heard of the weak head stud or valve spring problem. You might ask the folks on the 964 board if they've had any problems. Or if they've had their engines rebuilt and what was found.
As far as electrical problems go, I had one -- which was caused by a cracked spark plug boot. Some have noted that there is a drain, often caused by the alarm. Not sure if this qualifies the 964 series as electrical nightmares.
I would need to check my receipts, but I certainly don't recall paying over $1000 for a 15k mile service. The 30k service, yes -- valve adjustment, spark plug replacement, etc.
The '84 - '89 Carreras are great cars too! As JPC mentioned, do watch out for the clutch, and also watch for premature valve guide wear, especially in the '87 - '89 model years.
Whichever car you decide on, I think it goes without saying to get it thoroughly checked out!
The 964 series offers some advantages over the '84 - '89 Carreras. You get a coil over suspension, a 3.6 liter engine (with dual plugs), power-assisted steering (not everyone appreciates this upgrade -- drive both and see which you prefer), ABS, dual airbags on the US models, an updated heating/AC system, backlit guages, and slightly updated interior.
Styling -- the 964 had been put down for its styling, but now I see messages from a few people wanting to update their older 911 to the 964 look. Go figure! It's a subjective thing -- obvioiusly there's no right answer as to which is best.
My advice? Drive examples from both vintages to decide which style appeals to you the most. Find a good mechanic in your area and ask him what his experience is on 964's vs. the Carreras. See what he would charge to do the various services.
Good luck!
-- Melissa
PS John Miles has a great site for 964's, with people's "Running Reports." <a href="http://www.porsche964.co.uk/" target="_blank">John Miles 964 Site</a>
02-14-2002 | 05:59 PM
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Okay, I've owned both an '84 Carrera and a C2 (for the past 9 years), so suppose I'll chime in.
But first, I'll second everything Melissa has written above. Very accurate and comprehensive.
The late 80's 911 (Carrera) is a great car, but not quite the performance car the C2 is. The C2 is also much more comfortable with modern safety features. Unfortunately, there are costs associated with these enhancements, as they lead to greater complexity. For example, while the 964's HVAC system actually works, it can be expensive to repair (don't overlook the $HVAC$ during a PPI!). Also, no airbag/ABS and associated electronics to deal with on a 3.2L Carrera.
BTW, the 993 uses the same, effective but complex HVAC system the 964 uses, with a few minor differences (e.g., a pollen filter).
-I have never, ever paid over $800 for a major service on my 964. Over $1100 must include other repairs, is (beyond) full dealer price, or is in an area even pricier than L.A. The biggest difference in scheduled maintenance cost between the Carrera and 964 is the extra set of plugs, rotors, and wires.
-Yes, my DMF failed in 1994, at 35k miles. Replaced with the updated LUK DMF, has been a non-issue since. The 993 also uses the LUK DMF.
-Never had a problem with battery drain/electronics. Most battery drain problems can usually be traced to a trunk light that remains on or after-market alarms/stereos.
-My engine spun a rod bearing at 100k miles. Very bad luck, and not a 964 bug (never heard it happening to anyone else). At 100k miles, engine ran extremely strong, no oil leaks, except (yes) coagulated oil (i.e., very slow leak) at the #1 head.
-Like Melissa, never heard of a weak spring/head stud problem.
-All three 911s I've owned have been expensive to maintain/repair. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), 911s are not Toyota Camrys. JPC's idea of keeping at least 2k for after-purchase repairs is a good one.
-The 964 offers (very) near 993 performance for a much lower entry price. When the 964 was introduced, it was heralded as being nearly as fast the '89 911 Turbo (actually, the factory rated the 964 and '89 911 Turbo with the same 0-60 time).
Drive both the Carrera and 964, and if the difference in performance/comfort doesn't knock your socks off, then you have an easy decision ... get the Carrera. You'll still wind up with a fast, beautiful car that's full of (good) personality.
Oh, and finally, search the archives. Carrera vs. 964 has been debated many, many times in the past.
But first, I'll second everything Melissa has written above. Very accurate and comprehensive.
The late 80's 911 (Carrera) is a great car, but not quite the performance car the C2 is. The C2 is also much more comfortable with modern safety features. Unfortunately, there are costs associated with these enhancements, as they lead to greater complexity. For example, while the 964's HVAC system actually works, it can be expensive to repair (don't overlook the $HVAC$ during a PPI!). Also, no airbag/ABS and associated electronics to deal with on a 3.2L Carrera.
BTW, the 993 uses the same, effective but complex HVAC system the 964 uses, with a few minor differences (e.g., a pollen filter).
-I have never, ever paid over $800 for a major service on my 964. Over $1100 must include other repairs, is (beyond) full dealer price, or is in an area even pricier than L.A. The biggest difference in scheduled maintenance cost between the Carrera and 964 is the extra set of plugs, rotors, and wires.
-Yes, my DMF failed in 1994, at 35k miles. Replaced with the updated LUK DMF, has been a non-issue since. The 993 also uses the LUK DMF.
-Never had a problem with battery drain/electronics. Most battery drain problems can usually be traced to a trunk light that remains on or after-market alarms/stereos.
-My engine spun a rod bearing at 100k miles. Very bad luck, and not a 964 bug (never heard it happening to anyone else). At 100k miles, engine ran extremely strong, no oil leaks, except (yes) coagulated oil (i.e., very slow leak) at the #1 head.
-Like Melissa, never heard of a weak spring/head stud problem.
-All three 911s I've owned have been expensive to maintain/repair. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), 911s are not Toyota Camrys. JPC's idea of keeping at least 2k for after-purchase repairs is a good one.
-The 964 offers (very) near 993 performance for a much lower entry price. When the 964 was introduced, it was heralded as being nearly as fast the '89 911 Turbo (actually, the factory rated the 964 and '89 911 Turbo with the same 0-60 time).
Drive both the Carrera and 964, and if the difference in performance/comfort doesn't knock your socks off, then you have an easy decision ... get the Carrera. You'll still wind up with a fast, beautiful car that's full of (good) personality.
Oh, and finally, search the archives. Carrera vs. 964 has been debated many, many times in the past.
02-14-2002 | 10:27 PM
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From: congers, ny
I've got the best of both ... an '87 Carrera with a 3.6L (964) engine!
This is really like whether you prefer blondes or redheads?
The 964 does have improved heating and A/C, more horsepower and all-wheel drive in the C4 model. They are more complicated and require more time and skill to repair, so upkeep is higher. 964 Turbos are rare cars that still fetch large $$.
While they look a lot like the earlier 911s, the 964 has improved aerodynamics and some enthusiasts prefer that model's "cleaner" or smoother front and rear body styling.
Me? I love 'em both!
Richard
'87 Carrera-3.6L <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
This is really like whether you prefer blondes or redheads?
The 964 does have improved heating and A/C, more horsepower and all-wheel drive in the C4 model. They are more complicated and require more time and skill to repair, so upkeep is higher. 964 Turbos are rare cars that still fetch large $$.
While they look a lot like the earlier 911s, the 964 has improved aerodynamics and some enthusiasts prefer that model's "cleaner" or smoother front and rear body styling.
Me? I love 'em both!
Richard
'87 Carrera-3.6L <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
02-14-2002 | 11:47 PM
#6
Racer
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 332
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From: CT
Man, i had a 90 964 and had similar problem of car shutting down with a notice. Plus, too many other smaller problems to speak of.
My advice go and grab a 993 with more miles or 996 like myself(these are getting killed on the resale market).
So, good luck to you and drive in style.
My advice go and grab a 993 with more miles or 996 like myself(these are getting killed on the resale market).
So, good luck to you and drive in style.
02-16-2002 | 07:59 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,109
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From: Geyserville, CA
Jeff,
The comments above are cogent and fair. I think the bottom line is understanding the differences and finding out what floats your boat.
I went through this two years ago. For many reasons, I decided to go with the 87-89 genre. It is my first P-Car, and I wanted this first experience to be a bit more visceral, and more mechanically inviting so I could work on it just a little bit.
Turns out my 87 was almost in "too good" of condition. So I baby it a bit more than I intended. But I have zero mechanical problems so far (good PO, receipts, etc.) so I can vouch for the bullet-proof nature of these cards.
The cars are getting exponentially more complicated to work on. So I'm glad I started with an 87.
When/if I upgrade, I'll probably look at an '97 2S or 4S, or maybe go for a cabrio.
A good PPI will make all the difference between a great first experience and a costly one.
Happy Hunting!
Don
The comments above are cogent and fair. I think the bottom line is understanding the differences and finding out what floats your boat.
I went through this two years ago. For many reasons, I decided to go with the 87-89 genre. It is my first P-Car, and I wanted this first experience to be a bit more visceral, and more mechanically inviting so I could work on it just a little bit.
Turns out my 87 was almost in "too good" of condition. So I baby it a bit more than I intended. But I have zero mechanical problems so far (good PO, receipts, etc.) so I can vouch for the bullet-proof nature of these cards.
The cars are getting exponentially more complicated to work on. So I'm glad I started with an 87.
When/if I upgrade, I'll probably look at an '97 2S or 4S, or maybe go for a cabrio.
A good PPI will make all the difference between a great first experience and a costly one.
Happy Hunting!
Don
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02-18-2002 | 04:15 PM
#9
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Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Minnesota
For me it boils down to "What do you like the looks of better?" Do you like the newer smooth lines, or the older voluptuous curves? FWIW, I like the more traditional body style.
If you do decide on on late 80's and you find one that will need significant work on the mechanicals, you might be better off getting an older roller and putting in a rebuilt engine, updated tranny, suspension, etc.
The only caveat being that when you go to sell, many people look for 1987> cars (they're thinking 3.2L with G50) even though your older car with the updates may be as good or superior.
If you do decide on on late 80's and you find one that will need significant work on the mechanicals, you might be better off getting an older roller and putting in a rebuilt engine, updated tranny, suspension, etc.
The only caveat being that when you go to sell, many people look for 1987> cars (they're thinking 3.2L with G50) even though your older car with the updates may be as good or superior.
02-18-2002 | 05:03 PM
#10
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 625
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From: Here & There
I recently found myself having to make the very same choice. I decided to go with a low- mileage '88 targa. Deserved or not the reputation of the 964 keeps the resale value low, especially in comparison with the late 80's carreras. Also the late 80's cars seem to be a bit scarce. I'm betting that they are the better buy. In a few years when the price of the 993 becomes more affordable I might move on, but for now I'm thrilled. Good luck making the right choice for you.
Luus
'88 targa
Luus
'88 targa
02-18-2002 | 11:48 PM
#11
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Posts: 700
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From: Kent, CT
jlight, Well, If your screen name means anything, get the earlier car...It is lighter 
That being said, I have an '87 and love it. Drive them both, that will be the true test. Whichever one you truly like more is the one you should get!!! Enjoy the hunt for the new car!!
That being said, I have an '87 and love it. Drive them both, that will be the true test. Whichever one you truly like more is the one you should get!!! Enjoy the hunt for the new car!!
02-19-2002 | 09:19 AM
#12
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,156
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From: Scotland in my mind!!
I to have had axperience with both an 86 coupe and a 90 C2. I personally enjoy the earlier car, re[airs are much less expensive and I feel the ride is more real in the 86. The newer model cars all be it are more comfortable and a smoother ride but the trade of I feel is minimul. I now have an 86 coupe. I absolutely love it. "When I have the time" <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />