Ted_S

I'm just new to the board, having found it as part of a decision to buy a porsche. Having been limited to family cars, I'm *very* excited to get my better half's support to go down this path, and thrilled that this community exists.

I love the look of the air cooled cards, and am thinking about a couple different options - right now of most interest is a 89 930 cab or a 71-73ish targa. Very different cars of course... pros and cons to both in terms of my particular needs - probably it's own thread that this board could provide perspective on.

My main goal of this thread is to get perspective on a car I saw for sale at the Palo Alto Concours today.

It's a 71 911T Targa body with a S 2.4L motor (and I believe transmission) in it. The current 2nd owner claims to have purchased it 8yrs ago from the original owner who bought it in Germany, then decided to re outfit it to S standards in the early 70s. He further claims that the 20k miles on the odometer are actual miles (vs. 120,000), The interior is ok, but I'd want to redo it to original, replace the dash, & repaint back to original color. To my initial inspection, it was rust and accident free. The guy is asking $35K.

Needless to say, I'd do a very thorough PPI if I move forward. I've already found a couple of recommendations searching the archives.

So my main questions are around how much value an S engine, etc add to a T body? I've got enough data points to more or less value the T, just not the S enhancements.

The extra power is really attractive to me (hence the 89 930), and while I'd like to a have fully correct, original S across the board, I'm not sure I want to pay the high 5 figure prices I've seen on the few cars that are for sale.

Related, if I did invest to make this a real nice car, would I ever be able get value out of it if I decided to sell?

Thanks in advance for any perspective, and patience for newbie questions.

Ted

Peter Zimmermann

It will always be a "T", and the engine will always be an "S", unless the engine is not an S. Can you please post the engine number? Are there invoices for the engine "swap," and while we're at it, post the transmission number as well. 20,000 miles? Original? With a different engine & trans? Hmmmmmm.

mck911

Exactly what I was thinking. Not saying it's impossible, but who in their right mind would buy a car like that, do the swap and never drive it?

rusnak

Ted, I think the logical place to start is what sort of driving do you expect to do in your 911, and how many miles, what sort of climate, etc? Do you want to participate in autocross or DE events? Do you plan to drive on the street, etc? There are plenty of 911s out there, and a search can last a year or more. Don't get too focused on the car until you figure out what you really want. Comparing the T to the 930 suggests you need time to think some more.

Oh, and forget about the 911 as an investment. You'd be lucky to break even, even if you figure a nominal figure of $.75-.80 per mile.

VintageRacer

Ted,
You are doing everything right since you are are asking questions before you commit on a car. Your decision is up to you.

A longhood 1971-1973 911T Targa is worth less than a 1989 930 (if the cars are in the same shape).

You do know that the small bumper LWB cars are usually known as a 1969-1971 or a 1972-1973? The earlier cars had a 2.2L and the later cars had a 2.4L.

All of these cars had a 915 transmission.

A 911S engine is much different than a 911T (or 911E) that may have been "outfitted" to 911S specs. It has a S number on the case, or it doesn't.

I believe that a 911T/E engine is worth more than a stock engine with the proper professional receipts if it has the proper paperwork. But the 911S engine number is the key.

If you need help indentifying the engine case number, I'll be glad to help you.

Pete has helped me in the past to remove the red-mist in my eye when searching for a proper car. He has "forgotten" more than I will ever know about the early air-cooled Porsche cars.

Have you read his book?

MUSSBERGER

I would be very leery of an early car as my first 911. An 89 930 cab or coupe is a nice car and there are some nice ones out there. 89 930 has the 5 speed G50 trans.

whalebird

Welcome Ted. You came to the right place. All I can do is echo what has been said above. It sound as if you've done a bit of research here and thats real good. The differances between an early and late 911(we'll leave the 930 alone for a moment)are distinct. Regardless of auto, be it a Jeep, hotrod, Civic, or pick up, you must establish a clear objective before a single dime is spent. An early T with a 2.4 S drivetrain can be a spectacular driver, but Peter's post is concise, yet fetching. There are a lot of questions to be answered with such a car and 35K is a chunck of change(at least in my book). For that money, there are lots of good drivers that may be easier to live with than a 2.4S. Assuming the data is accurate, a 20K original S motor ( does it have MFI injection or carbs?) can be deadly expensive to bring up to modern spec - you can expect lots of expensive upkeep to say the least. Your better half may loose her enthusiasm. 35K on a car that's been "hacked" is very risky. A later model 84-89 Carrera is much "safer", the 78-83 SCs are flawless performers if you procure a nice one. You would be well served to consider the 89 - 94 911s(964) and the 95 - 98 911s (993) to add perspective to your purchase.
Now the 930. 89 is a pinnacle year with the 5 speed, but they are a real bear to drive aggressivly. If you consider the possibility of PCA driver's Education(DE), and I strongly suggest you do, a 930 Cab can wear you out. They need to be maintained and can be costly to repair as well.

The first place to start is with Peter's book. Get a copy and absorb the info.
Keep us posted.

Ted_S

After sleeping on it last night and reading your comments, better judgment prevailed and I've moved on. It *could* be a great car, but there are way too many unknowns for my comfort.

Excellent advice on Pete's book. Order it + the redbook on Amazon today - 2 day delivery!

A bit more on what I'm looking for:
- 2nd car I drive 2 to 3x week on my commute, maybe 50 miles/wk- call it 2,500 to 4,000 miles/yr.
- Cab or targa - live in SF Bay area
- 1969 - 1989. Aesthetic preference for that look
- reliable...
++ later yr cars in a particular model series
++ well documented history, ideally by a person who really loved and appreciated the car
++ good maintenance record, etc
- holding value is a nice benefit - would give me more flexibility for when I see the next shiny new, must have 911 and want to trade in

I owned an 86 Targa for our 4 yrs (pre kids) that I loved driving - my only data point.

I'm talking to lots of people with some experience... so far the smart folks have points me to 71-73S targas, 83 SCs, and 87-89 cabs.

I haven't driven a 930 yet... whalebird's advice on the DE is very good.

Thanks again everyone - really appreciate you taking the time...

Cam Arnott

Ted

I think the big thing here is to drive both an early car and the 930 and see which one puts the bigger smile on your face.
Once you work that out then you can look for the right car for you. If you are looking for an early car then the Early S Registry is a good place to start as it caters for all models from 65-73 and not just 'esses'.

Good luck and happy hunting!

Amber Gramps

Ted, if you have $35,000. . .you have lots of options. I would expect you to look closely at dozens of candidates in all variations. Searhing is much funner than regretting.

Here's a good first 911

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...e&rdpage=thumb

race911

915 wasn't introduced until MY72. So this may or may not have had the whole drivetrain transplanted. Nothing inherently wrong with a 901 box; more in the funky '70-1 pull clutch, and it's propensity to fail both on the ball pivot and the......what DO you call the load bearing piece on the cable itself?

And while we're identifying what's what, the '69 cars are 2.0 (80X66).