Cost of replacing 1987-1988 soft valve guides?
12-27-2009, 08:21 PM
#31
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Ed....Maybe I'd be better off to use my VW Bug to hop back and forth the 1.5 miles
and just drive the 911 when I can take it out for a decent run. That might only be
once every week or so and the rest of the time it would sit. Maybe that's not good for it either?
and just drive the 911 when I can take it out for a decent run. That might only be
once every week or so and the rest of the time it would sit. Maybe that's not good for it either?
12-27-2009, 08:37 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
Steve and Pete can probably give you better data on engines that were not properly warmed and the effects of it, so I'll defer to the experts.
BTW, do you have "The Used 911 Story" available? This is a must read for anyone in the 911 market. A lot of useful info. I constantly refer to it.
BTW, do you have "The Used 911 Story" available? This is a must read for anyone in the 911 market. A lot of useful info. I constantly refer to it.
12-27-2009, 08:39 PM
#33
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Hi salujkijac.....No, I hadn't heard of "The used 911 story" Is it available in bookstores?
P.S....Is this it?
The Used 911 Story, 8th Edition (Paperback)
~ Peter Zimmermann (Author)
P.S....Is this it?
The Used 911 Story, 8th Edition (Paperback)
~ Peter Zimmermann (Author)
12-28-2009, 12:15 AM
#37
RL Technical Advisor
That's better than naught, but you really are best to fully heat ANY car up, otherwise you end up with a bunch of water vapor condensing in your oil and case. I think we pay more attention to this, because we care more about our cars than the general public does, but any car should be fully warmed up when it is run. 2 mile trips to the store are killers.
12-28-2009, 01:05 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
I'm going to be the devil's advocate for a moment.
I wouldn't necessarily be put off by 17k miles. It depends a lot on how the miles were put on....did the owner put 17k on the first year and let it sit for the next 19, or was it driven consistently over the 20 years? As long as it didn't sit for 6+ months at a time, I don't think there's much to worry about. Of course, caution would be warranted if you can't verify its history.
Zillions of 20-year-old Ferraris have this much mileage or even less, and they don't seem to suffer any ill effects. At least, I never heard of any issues during my time in the Ferrari world. Again, it depends a lot on the frequency of the driving and how the car is treated when not being driven.
I wouldn't necessarily be put off by 17k miles. It depends a lot on how the miles were put on....did the owner put 17k on the first year and let it sit for the next 19, or was it driven consistently over the 20 years? As long as it didn't sit for 6+ months at a time, I don't think there's much to worry about. Of course, caution would be warranted if you can't verify its history.
Zillions of 20-year-old Ferraris have this much mileage or even less, and they don't seem to suffer any ill effects. At least, I never heard of any issues during my time in the Ferrari world. Again, it depends a lot on the frequency of the driving and how the car is treated when not being driven.
12-28-2009, 03:40 PM
#39
I haddah Google dat
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Good advice here,...
I'd simply add that the valve guide issue did not affect ALL Carrera's nor SC's.
The "guide problem" was twofold in nature:
1) Use of a soft guide material that exhibited higher rates of wear.
2) Inconsistent valve stem-to-guide clearances that resulted in premature high oil consumption.
Based on what I've seen over the past 25+ years doing all of our own head work in-house, fitment at the factory varied quite bit and some cars came with closer tolerances than others. The ones that came with looser clearances, simply used more oil than the others did. In fact, many of these engines left the factory with exhaust guide clearances outside of their own tolerances! The rest of these engines are truly superb and with excellent maintenance, will last for hundreds of thousands of miles.
The only way to check guide wear is by removing the lower valve covers and measuring the side play in the assemblies. Conversely, oil consumption is an excellent indicator of guide wear (assuming the leakdowns are good).
A "permanent" repair is to install better (aftermarket) guides and fit them properly per spec. We've had excellent success using our own Phosphorus-Bronze guide materials and taking the time to properly hone the guides to fit so they last the life of the engine. We also use the factory Viton seals, NOT the teflon ones in the majority of installations.
Finally, the cost of replacing guides varies widely according to local labor rates so its difficult to offer specific
I hope this clarifies this issue and helps establish some perspective when considering the purchase of one of these fine automobiles.
I'd simply add that the valve guide issue did not affect ALL Carrera's nor SC's.
The "guide problem" was twofold in nature:
1) Use of a soft guide material that exhibited higher rates of wear.
2) Inconsistent valve stem-to-guide clearances that resulted in premature high oil consumption.
Based on what I've seen over the past 25+ years doing all of our own head work in-house, fitment at the factory varied quite bit and some cars came with closer tolerances than others. The ones that came with looser clearances, simply used more oil than the others did. In fact, many of these engines left the factory with exhaust guide clearances outside of their own tolerances! The rest of these engines are truly superb and with excellent maintenance, will last for hundreds of thousands of miles.
The only way to check guide wear is by removing the lower valve covers and measuring the side play in the assemblies. Conversely, oil consumption is an excellent indicator of guide wear (assuming the leakdowns are good).
A "permanent" repair is to install better (aftermarket) guides and fit them properly per spec. We've had excellent success using our own Phosphorus-Bronze guide materials and taking the time to properly hone the guides to fit so they last the life of the engine. We also use the factory Viton seals, NOT the teflon ones in the majority of installations.
Finally, the cost of replacing guides varies widely according to local labor rates so its difficult to offer specific
I hope this clarifies this issue and helps establish some perspective when considering the purchase of one of these fine automobiles.
This is an excellent post that you could not find just anywhere.
To the OP, my own opinion is that your expertise will catch up to your needs. The older air cooled 911s were designed and built to last virtually forever, and everyone knew that. Porsche spent way too much money building these cars because they were driven to make a legacy building car. The newer ones, even the 993s, had a lot more plastic. Everything important on these older cars is made of metal, which is why I think your mechanical prowess should be secondary. The longevity of the car being your main question, I would say get the '87 911.
Last edited by rusnak; 12-28-2009 at 03:56 PM.
12-28-2009, 03:54 PM
#40
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rusnak...Thanks for that. A big part of me would look forward to learning about the car and trying
to take care of as much as I could myself. That may be unrealistic because, as I said, I'm not very
mechanically adept nor do I have tools for this kind of thing. I don't mind spending money for an oil
change and a valve adjustment every 12k miles [or whatever is appropriate] as well as replacing the
clutch every xx miles. With luck that may be all I'd need if I only put 3-4k miles per year on the car.
Everett
to take care of as much as I could myself. That may be unrealistic because, as I said, I'm not very
mechanically adept nor do I have tools for this kind of thing. I don't mind spending money for an oil
change and a valve adjustment every 12k miles [or whatever is appropriate] as well as replacing the
clutch every xx miles. With luck that may be all I'd need if I only put 3-4k miles per year on the car.
Everett
12-29-2009, 03:40 PM
#43
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I have been told that the 3.2 engines are good for 250k miles without being rebuilt if they receive
proper maintenance. What do you guys think? True? False? Marketing hype?
proper maintenance. What do you guys think? True? False? Marketing hype?
12-29-2009, 04:20 PM
#44
Race Car
Totally true. It is critical to keep maintenance up, and get after the repairs if anything does seem amiss. It will be important to find a good shop and for a couple of reasons. First you will need guidance on repairs and maintenance. second you will need parts. third you will likely make a friend. This community is pretty tight knit and a good relationship with a shop will enhance ownership. Finding the right guy for you may take a few visits to several shops. Join PCA and get the opinions of fellow members on the shops they use. It's a big bonus when the shop's staff own and drive 911's and belong to PCA. You will know the right guy when you find him and be openminded. Also when this trusted shop tells you something it's a good idea to follow thru with his suggestions. A 911 is arguably one of the most reliable and robust cars you can own. The price of admission is a bit higher, but overall the cost of ownership is very low given a properly owned and maintained car. I suspect you will get a 911 and drive it a lot more than you think. Jump in - its the most fun you can have on 4 wheels.
12-29-2009, 04:55 PM
#45
Three Wheelin'
Full rebuild or top end? There are far more expert people on this forum than I, but it seems to me that many 3.2s start to consume more oil when they get over the 100K mile mark, so top end rebuilds at or near that mileage are not uncommon. I know of engines that have needed top end rebuilds earlier and I'm sure there are some that go a lot longer, but I think it's incorrect to assume that regular maintenance will get you to the 250K mark without a top end rebuild. Valve guides wear regardless of how well the car has been maintained.