911 3.2 Engine Rebuild for High Performance
09-25-2009, 12:52 PM
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911 3.2 Engine Rebuild for High Performance
Looking for a recommnedation for the best high performance Porsche engine builder for my 1987 Carrera (3.2). I live just north of New York City.
09-25-2009, 03:19 PM
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My recommendation is to sell 3.2 and fit a 3.6 993 engine, it will work out cheaper to do, will be a lot more powerful and also be a lot more economical to run.
09-25-2009, 09:24 PM
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Installing a 3.6 yields max performance but isn't cheap to do (properly). 
My best advice would be to ensure you have a realistic budget to accomplish whatever performance goals you have.
Such conversions require additional oil coolers and a few thousand dollars worth of conversion parts, depending on what level of quality you want done. The transmission must be up to the task of handling the additional torque as do the CV's and axles. Further, the donor engine usually needs new guides and a reseal, at the very least.
If you wish to redo the 3.2, I'd talk to Chris Musante @ Musante Motorsports in Conn and tell him I sent you.
My best advice would be to ensure you have a realistic budget to accomplish whatever performance goals you have.Such conversions require additional oil coolers and a few thousand dollars worth of conversion parts, depending on what level of quality you want done. The transmission must be up to the task of handling the additional torque as do the CV's and axles. Further, the donor engine usually needs new guides and a reseal, at the very least.
If you wish to redo the 3.2, I'd talk to Chris Musante @ Musante Motorsports in Conn and tell him I sent you.
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09-26-2009, 02:29 AM
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Installing a 3.6 yields max performance but isn't cheap to do (properly). My best advice would be to ensure you have a realistic budget to accomplish whatever performance goals you have.
Such conversions require additional oil coolers and a few thousand dollars worth of conversion parts, depending on what level of quality you want done. The transmission must be up to the task of handling the additional torque as do the CV's and axles. Further, the donor engine usually needs new guides and a reseal, at the very least.
If you wish to redo the 3.2, I'd talk to Chris Musante @ Musante Motorsports in Conn and tell him I sent you.
My best advice would be to ensure you have a realistic budget to accomplish whatever performance goals you have.Such conversions require additional oil coolers and a few thousand dollars worth of conversion parts, depending on what level of quality you want done. The transmission must be up to the task of handling the additional torque as do the CV's and axles. Further, the donor engine usually needs new guides and a reseal, at the very least.
If you wish to redo the 3.2, I'd talk to Chris Musante @ Musante Motorsports in Conn and tell him I sent you.
09-26-2009, 06:20 AM
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If power is your primary aim it is a complete no-brainer to go with the 3.6, you will spend double the cost to achieve less power with a 3.2 conversion. Here's the 9m logic, based on more than a dozen conversions to date:
Assuming that you start with a good 964 or 993 engine to start with which does not need a rebuild, the typical cost of buying the 3.6 (with ecu & loom) less selling the 3.2 is around £2500.
Use the 3.2 exhaust (£0), fit lambda sensor from 3.6 engine.
Use 3.2 tinware, extend rear pieces to match taper of 3.6 chain housing (£0).
Fit the turbo an oil cooler fan to the standard matrix front cooler (£200).
Make an oil feed pipe for the engine to join into the stock S pipe.
Most combinations of 3.2 & 3.6 oil breather pipes from both engines will hook up to the tank & intake.
Fit cone air filter onto stock airflow meter as 3.6 airbox will not fit (£80).
For 915 gearbox, fit 915 flywheel with 60-2 trigger teeth machined into rim & rebalanced, or buy one ready done (£450). Don't worry about longevity as the 915 will definitely take 300hp, so don't worry about beefing it up (remember when we fitted them as an upgrade to 930 turbos?)
For G50 gearbox, modify standard G50 flywheel with trigger ring recovered from old 964 or 993 dual mass, rebalance (£350).
Use stock clutch (was working before you took the engine out.....?).
Modify 3.6 speed sensor bracket for correct air gap between sensor and flywheel trigger, make larger cutout in gearbox to suit.
Wiring changes are the tricky one for most.
The 964 is the easy one because the engine loom is in one piece and you can swap the wires around on the engine harness plug to suit the 3.2 car, so the only tricky bit is the loom to car junction under the seat. for the DME relay. The 993 has a two part loom, the most usual way of wiring this is to use the rear section of the 993 car loom in addition to the DME loom. Patrick Motorsports (& others) can help you with the necessary adapter parts to do this if wiring is not your bag.
As a package job we usually book 50 hours for doing all of the above (£3000), plus parts of around £1000 including oil & filters, the engine at £2500 nett and probably a live remap £500, for a grand total of £7000 which will give you typically 300hp/400Nm at 30mpg on cruise.
So, how much does it really cost to get 300hp from a 3.2 engine.....
Full engine rebuild labour £3000
High compression 3.5 piston & cylinder kit £3400
Crankcase machining £300
Cylinder head studs £500
Ported cylinder heads £600
Twin plug conversion £1500
PMO carburettor kit £2500
Camshafts £750
SSI exhaust system £1000
Ignition system £600
Misc bearings, chains, ramps, gaskets, guides, etc £1000
Total cost around £15k.
In 2001 we had a customer with a 3.2 Carrera Targa come to us for an estimate to do a 3.5 conversion, straight out I told him to go for a 3.6 as it would cost half the price and give more power, based on the maths above. He noted my advise and I sent him an estimate for the work, but then we did not hear from him again. Last year he called me and asked if I remembered our conversations, which (unusually for me) I did because he had a very uncommon name. The reason for his call is that he wanted to tell me that he regretted not accepting my offer to fit a 3.6 because he chose to have a single plug 3.5 built by another reputable tuner local to him in London. The reason for his regret is that the engine cost him £15k to build yet to date had failed to make more than 260hp, furthermore he was averaging 12mpg around London.
I have no doubt that for some, modifying the original engine is the best solution and I totally respect that, all I suggest though, is that if this is the path for you, do it for the right reasons with your eyes wide open from the start of the project.
Assuming that you start with a good 964 or 993 engine to start with which does not need a rebuild, the typical cost of buying the 3.6 (with ecu & loom) less selling the 3.2 is around £2500.
Use the 3.2 exhaust (£0), fit lambda sensor from 3.6 engine.
Use 3.2 tinware, extend rear pieces to match taper of 3.6 chain housing (£0).
Fit the turbo an oil cooler fan to the standard matrix front cooler (£200).
Make an oil feed pipe for the engine to join into the stock S pipe.
Most combinations of 3.2 & 3.6 oil breather pipes from both engines will hook up to the tank & intake.
Fit cone air filter onto stock airflow meter as 3.6 airbox will not fit (£80).
For 915 gearbox, fit 915 flywheel with 60-2 trigger teeth machined into rim & rebalanced, or buy one ready done (£450). Don't worry about longevity as the 915 will definitely take 300hp, so don't worry about beefing it up (remember when we fitted them as an upgrade to 930 turbos?)
For G50 gearbox, modify standard G50 flywheel with trigger ring recovered from old 964 or 993 dual mass, rebalance (£350).
Use stock clutch (was working before you took the engine out.....?).
Modify 3.6 speed sensor bracket for correct air gap between sensor and flywheel trigger, make larger cutout in gearbox to suit.
Wiring changes are the tricky one for most.
The 964 is the easy one because the engine loom is in one piece and you can swap the wires around on the engine harness plug to suit the 3.2 car, so the only tricky bit is the loom to car junction under the seat. for the DME relay. The 993 has a two part loom, the most usual way of wiring this is to use the rear section of the 993 car loom in addition to the DME loom. Patrick Motorsports (& others) can help you with the necessary adapter parts to do this if wiring is not your bag.
As a package job we usually book 50 hours for doing all of the above (£3000), plus parts of around £1000 including oil & filters, the engine at £2500 nett and probably a live remap £500, for a grand total of £7000 which will give you typically 300hp/400Nm at 30mpg on cruise.
So, how much does it really cost to get 300hp from a 3.2 engine.....
Full engine rebuild labour £3000
High compression 3.5 piston & cylinder kit £3400
Crankcase machining £300
Cylinder head studs £500
Ported cylinder heads £600
Twin plug conversion £1500
PMO carburettor kit £2500
Camshafts £750
SSI exhaust system £1000
Ignition system £600
Misc bearings, chains, ramps, gaskets, guides, etc £1000
Total cost around £15k.
In 2001 we had a customer with a 3.2 Carrera Targa come to us for an estimate to do a 3.5 conversion, straight out I told him to go for a 3.6 as it would cost half the price and give more power, based on the maths above. He noted my advise and I sent him an estimate for the work, but then we did not hear from him again. Last year he called me and asked if I remembered our conversations, which (unusually for me) I did because he had a very uncommon name. The reason for his call is that he wanted to tell me that he regretted not accepting my offer to fit a 3.6 because he chose to have a single plug 3.5 built by another reputable tuner local to him in London. The reason for his regret is that the engine cost him £15k to build yet to date had failed to make more than 260hp, furthermore he was averaging 12mpg around London.
I have no doubt that for some, modifying the original engine is the best solution and I totally respect that, all I suggest though, is that if this is the path for you, do it for the right reasons with your eyes wide open from the start of the project.
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09-26-2009, 05:18 PM
#8
Drifting
There are different ways to do it - but as Steve mentioned, most of the 993 and 964 engines will probably need valve guides too (didn't bruce anderson quote Jerry Woods in his book that he's NEVER taken a 964/993 engine apart that didn't need valve guides) So factor that in.
I'd love the torque of the 3.6 = but my 3.4 will get on it's way/
I'd love the torque of the 3.6 = but my 3.4 will get on it's way/
09-26-2009, 06:23 PM
#9
You might want to talk to Cheech Fernandez @ Rennwerke Porsche in Elmsford(914-592 4006). A visit to his shop, and the variety of cars there , from fullout racing to stock guys like me to will reveal the depth of his knowledge, and i think at least you'll get a worthwhile opinion regarding all of the above. I suggest an app't rather than a 'drop in'
09-27-2009, 07:49 PM
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I hate to say it, but if you really want HP and are concerned with cost, then a LS V8 conversion is the most effective route. This from someone that has Renegade Hybrids in my backyard, and a 3.2 in the engine bay. I bought my car with a well worn 2.7, and was lucky enough to trade it for a nice 40k 3.2, (plus a very reasonable amount of cash). I have resigned myself to not doing any engine mods other than an exhaust system, and that is mostly for weight savings.
My advice? Add lightness or buy a later car. A proper engine rebuild for a Porsche is expensive no matter how you look at it.
My advice? Add lightness or buy a later car. A proper engine rebuild for a Porsche is expensive no matter how you look at it.
09-27-2009, 11:34 PM
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10-04-2009, 09:46 AM
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Chris @ musante is a good guy too. Depends on how far away from the city you want to go. Dan Jacobs in oxford ct would be closer and I know he has done quite a few of these. Either way both guys will do a great job