MikeF

My 89 Targa will receive a Brey-Krause harness bar and camera mount soon. I would like to add 5 point harnesses but would rather not change from the stock seats...at least for now. With the shoulder straps anchored at the rear seatbelt mounts and threaded through the harness bar slots, can I retain my stock seats and still achieve a safe and snug fit for DE, etc.?

Thanks for your advice.

Tim

You may want to get harnesses with a sternum latch. 5 point harness used with stcok seats spread abroun the head rests and fall of your shoulders..... not good. The sternum latch also secures the shoulder belts across your chest

Bill Gregory

Mike,

You should check the group you'll be driving with. For example, some PCA regions require seats that support harnesses, ie, have holes in the shoulder of the seat, like Recaro SRD's and others, in order to use harnesses. The concern is that the shoulder harness can slide on the stock seats, affecting their ability to hold you in. Also, unless you cut a hole in your stock seat, the sub belt can only go in front of the seat to be anchored, which is not the best way to do that. You'd be better off with 6 way belts, or go ahead and buy the right seats. Some seats also come with the sub belt hole already in it.

Speaking of which, if you go with 5 way belts, have you thought about how you'll attach the sub belt? Some drill a hole in the floor and put an eye bolt in, and some have fabricated a fitting between the seat channel to the sub belt to attach to. If you want guidance on what's a safe practice, read the PCA Club Racing guidelines at <a href="http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/docs/pca_rules_2002.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/docs/pca_rules_2002.pdf</a>

Trak Ratt

We have had the same setup for several years. As noted the high back can spread the shoulder belts but I don’t have a problem with that. At 5’10” my shoulders are high enough on the seat to keep the belts in place. The submarine belt loses a lot of efficiency by being run over the front of the seat instead of through it but again it’s workable. In a coupe harnesses w/o a roll bar are not a good idea, but a Targa is probably OK?

MikeF

Clearly, keeping the stock seats will require a compromise. I've heard that with this type of setup, it may be better to go with 4 point harnesses since the sub-marine harness will not attach at a 90 degree angle to the clasp. David, it seems that your experience might indicate otherwise....how is your sub-belt mounted?

Lastly, is there a particular brand of harness that you prefer? I like the suggestion of a sternum latch (I'm about 6' so maybe it wouldn't be necessary)...do most harness mfgrs offer this?

Thanks again,

nate

I have four-points in my 85. There are two problems with this setup. First, there will be some slack over the shoulders. This allows the belt to rub the shoulders giving you some nice hickeys. I would think that it would also increse the likelyhood of injury in an accident. Second, when you are strapping in you have to be careful that the shoulder belts aren't caught on the seat back tile lever on the side of the seat. Not that big of a deal but you need to be aware of it when bringing the strap over. IMO, it's a real pain in the ***.

The issue with not having a roll bar is pretty simple: Should you be involved in a roll-over, you have no little room to escape the crushed roof. I have a <a href="http://www.das-sport.com/" target="_blank">DAS</a> rollbar in my car. It was around $800 delivered and the fit and finish are exceptional (no drilling or welding required).<a href="http://63.105.186.188/porsche/images/rollbar.jpg" target="_blank">Here</a> is a picture of the install.

Trak Ratt

Stay away from 4 point sets, they generally are smaller & IMO don’t hold you as well as the stock belts. The last thing you do w/a stock belt is pull the lap part real tight & let the excess retract. The first corner should lock it up. Our 5th belt is mounted through the floor w/regular square plate reinforcements. In anticipation of getting a racing seat I mounted it about 3”-4” behind the front of the stock seat. My wife who is around 5’3’ also uses it with out trouble. Though this method does not work as well as through the seats, IMO it works better than a 4 point & holds you more firmly than a 3 point. Using any kind of harness is not recommended w/o at least a roll bar to protect your now firmly braced upright head in a roll over! It happened last month at VIR & everyone that saw the car, saw the benefit of having a roll bar. Thankfully, no one was hurt.

MikeF

Is the factory roll-bar in a Targa inadequate for a rollover? For some reason, I rarely see rollbars in Targas.

Thanks,

Burnell

you can have the seat modified with a crotch hole and a hole for the shoulder straps. I have pictures of a modified seat but someone has to tell me how to post them here. I will email them to anyone who wants to see them.

Jeff Curtis

Generally, the use of a five-point harness setup on a factory seat is unacceptable, not to mention unsafe.

Four point belts are okay, but barely safer than your factory seatbelt.

The basic "work around" for the lack of safety a five-point harness will provide with a factory seat is the use of the factory seatbelt as well.

If you're going to use harnesses, get your seat modified to accomodate the sub strap. ...and use the sternum strap coupled with "H" style shoulder harnesses as well.

Jaws911

I just got back from the Metro PCA Pocono DE where I was advised to consider upgrading to a harness as a first step if I plan to do this more frequently. My buddy had a Boxster w/ a 6 point harness in stock seats - has anybody any experience with this in 911's? (two of the the six points came from the side of the seat frame thru the legs - so no anchor point are needed in the floor).
thanks
fred l.

Alan Herod

I have not mounted the sub-belts in the 911, but that is how I had them mounted in my last SCCA cars -- one sub-belt per lap belt mounted to the same mounting point as the lap belt -- just routed differently. You end up sitting on the sub-belt. Although these belts came into their own as anti-submarine belts when it was found the formula guys would submarine out of protection, it was proven that these belts also keep the lap belt down where it is supposed to be. I would check the current rule books for guidance. SCCA showroom stock rules would be appropriates since you intend to keep your stock seats.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Wil Ferch

Hi:
I'd like to address "nate"'s picture that was provided.
He shows a DAS roll bar with the shoulder harnesses mounted to the ( admittedly substantial) cross-bar. I wouldn't do this. Why? It certainly has enough strength to hold you in-place, but in a severe accient that pitches you violently forward, maybe even with 2 people (driver/instructor)...I would *not* depend on two 8 mm bolts ( in "shear") to hold the rear of the bar in place. Much better, IMHO...is to have each shoulder strap draped over the cross bar...through the optional belt loops...and continue down to the rear seat belt mounting points...each of these attachments ( 4 total) is a 7/16-20 UNF pitch bolt thread that would have much more shear resistance than the two 8x40 mm bolts that hold the rear of the bar.
It's strange that I have a concern about this...and less so about using 5 point belts with a stock seat. Just the opposite concern expressed by others. I am *so* locked-in, I can't imagine the two shoulder straps coming apart. Maybe this has a lot to do with how you're built and how it then feels to you. If I felt I needed extra security about this, I would "criss-cross" the shoulder belts behind the head rest before draping them over my shoulders and down to the buckle, for a standard seat. I have heard conflicting reports as to whether the sternum straps help or hurt you...depending on the type of crash you might have.
--- Wil Ferch

Wil Ferch

Oops:
One more thing...
I would not run 4 point belts...ever.
The purpose of the 5th or 6th belts is simply to keep the lap belts across your pelvis...your own "pivot point", as it were. I once had the opportunity to ride in a car with 4 points, and just spirited driving ( let alons a crash) had these things riding up worse than "Erkels" pants on "Family Matters". Very, very dangerous....
---Wil Ferch

Bill Gregory

[quote]<strong>He shows a DAS roll bar with the shoulder harnesses mounted to the ( admittedly substantial) cross-bar. I wouldn't do this. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with Wil. I've had two DAS roll bars (SC and C2), and while they are substantial, I run my shoulder harness over the cross bar to hook into eye bolts in place of the rear seats (which were removed to install the rollbar). An "H" harness has the length to handle this comfortably.