M758

Ok,
911 guys. Is the 996 a real 911 is it the mondern incarnation of a car that is currently called a 911. Please Note I do not make any reference to its abilites on the road or track as I consider it to be fine vehicle just as the 911 is.

Here is a disscussion on 996 board on this that you may find intersting.

<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=002197" target="_blank">911, an anachonism??</a>

Feedback??
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

Ed Bighi

No. To me the 996 is definetely not a 911. You don't call a 356 a 911. Perhaps the best way to describe my feelings about the 996 is by quoting an article I read a couple of years back in European Car describing their long term 996. The author really put the differences between the air-cooled 911 and the 996 into perspective in the last paragraph of the article. It said "The biggest addition to the performance of the new 996 is the biggest minus for me. You can do things easily on the road in the new car that required great skill and concentration aboard the old 911. And I don't think that is a good thing. Something like a 1973 Carrera RS might be cramped, idle funny and lousy ventilation along with a crappy radio, but it made a statement. The new 911 makes a statement all right: You can let the valet park it if you choose, but the RS required you park it yourself and walk." I could not have said it better than the author, Kerry Morse, did. That paragraph pretty much states the essence of the true 911 and how alien the 996 is from those ideals. A true evolution of a vehicle is best exemplified by the Mercedes Unimog and Gelaendewagen. These are vehicles that are improved and refined every year, but never stray from the basic details of what makes them what they are. GE and Unimog buyers, have always been serious and loyal to the vehicles and never liked any bs changes that weren't needed. Mercedes knows that and complies. So does Chrysler with the Jeep. There has never been change for the sake of change in those vehicles. The air-cooled 911 always evolved in those same ways. That has sadly ended with the introduction of the 996.

Harold

Whilst definitely not as raw as the earlier "911s", I am not too sure that the 996 lacks the credentials to be labelled a 911 (which has always been seen in some way as the flagship Porsche).

It really is just a progression of one basic ideology, that the engine be hung out the wrong side of the rear axle. Just because it lacks excitement, or doesn't require as much skill to drive hard doesn't make it a bad car (quite the contrary- it makes it a better car but not necessarily as challenging).

There will always be enough "original/real/whatever 911's" running in the second hand market to satisfy the hard core "driver". What the 996 does is just make the driving experience all more accessible to the everyday driver- it really is a case of a car not being able to be everything to everyone.

I for one have no problem with the 996 being labelled a 911, though I might have a problem if the Cayenne was labelled as such...

scott watkins

M758,

I think it comes down to the individual, and what their interpretation of what a 911 is???

Scott

Steve Wilwerding

Usually the point of contention comes down to air vs. water cooled. A lot of people consider a "real 911" to have a rear-mounted, air-cooled, horizontally opposed, 6 cylinder engine. That's why they don't like the 996 and it's also the reason they're not too fond of the rumors that Porsche will be putting the new Cayenne 8-cylinder engine in a 911. Headlights are also a big thing - people don't like the "fried egg" look of the new headlights and prefer the round headlights of "traditional" 911s.

turbocarrera.

I would give my left *** to have a 996, even tho there's ALOT of Porsches I would take before it, you don't want to know what I'd give for a 959.

It looks different than the original 911 but so did the '74 and the 964 and the 993, (albeit to a lesser degree). The motor is the sublimely smooth f6 and its out back like the others and while it may be water cooled, it's one of the highest hp/l naturally-aspirated engines Porsche has ever built. It just sounds different, just like 3.6 sounds way different than a 2.2.

As far as 911's go - give me a '72S for autocrosses, a 935 for the track, a 959 for road trips, and a 996 for a daily driver. NIRVANVA!

turbocarrera.

Make that an '73 RSR for autocrossing.

M758

Speaking of 73 RSR...
A guy brought a 73 or 74 race car out to our local Autocross Sunday. Said it was on IROC car, but Doing some research I an not sure if is pedigree. I feel that is is either a RS , RSR or IROC car. Funny things were duck tail and carbs on the motor.

Anyway the car was really hoot!

Awesome sound and really cool deep dish Fuchs.

Eddie,
Too bad you missed it! You even had shot for TTOD. Mark's excrusions on the track last week left him a little off and Andy beat out Ken for TTOD. Mark was 3rd or 4th.

JP aka....

Carrera51

M758:
The original IROC cars were delivered with Duck Tails. I think they had mechanical injection instead of carbs. I recall a story in Excellence about the first IROC Porsches.

Rob in WA

I drove an '82 Targa for ten years, when it was time to trade up I had a REAL hard time w/ the 996s. I drove 993s and 996s and I couldn't argue that the 996 was a better performer, I just couldn't get over the looks. Then I saw some pics of 996s w/headlight covers, I know it's silly, but to me that sold it. After sixteen months I can say it's a 911.

What's a 911?

Rear mounted flat six engine - the soul of a sports car, classic shape, 2 + 2, handling - big FUN factor, and Porsche's flagship model.

This is really a silly discussion considering Porsche's stance.

Time passes.
Places change.
The 911 EVOLVES

The subtle re-sculpting of a fender line. A few ounces shaved from a wheel. An increase in engine displacement. Details that can result in more speed, better handling, greater stability, and enhanced comfort. NO new 911 is identical to the one that came before. There are ALWAYS improvements, refinements, and enhancements and there always will be. The 911 remains the benchmark for high- performance sports cars. Just as no factory racing Porsche has ever rolled up to the starting line without some new development to enhance performance, no new 911 replaces it's predecessor without a list of improvements. It's been that way EVERY YEAR, for almost forty years.

The 911 is what the masses consider a Porsche. It is more then just a number, it represents thousands of race victories and a historical precedent.






Yes, the 911 is alive and well thank you <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

JonSeigel

Setting aside the air cooled/liquid cooled and cosmetic issues, the reason I feel that the 996 "broke" the 911 line is that it feels more like a GT car than a sports car. If you have driven a 996, you know what I mean. Although 911s have gotten progressively less raw during their evolution, they've all felt like sports cars--until now.

ian928s4

Porsche designed an all new car in the 1990s and called it the Boxter. A couple of years later they introduced the 996 which was a rear engined Boxter. A great car and I would love to have one but it is not a 911. Just as a c5 corvette is a completely different car than the original, so to is the 996. If you hop into a 993 you still can tell that you're in a 911, but when you get in a 996 you can't.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.
Ian

Speedraser

A 911 used to be a 911 for reasons other than because "the 911 is what the masses consider a Porsche." Not anymore. The 996 is a great car in many ways, but I don't think it's a 911. I am sad that this "hard core driver" may not ever want to buy a new "911". I could never love a 996 the way I love my SC or 993. The 996 is great car, but to me, the whole philosophy behind it is very different than it used to be. The romance, if you will, is gone with the overwhelming corporateness of everything Porsche does these days. Sales volume uber alles may be shorter-sighted than it may seem. Perhaps Porsche just doesn't care whether the "hard core drivers" buy their new cars anymore as long as many people do buy them. A recent article in (I think) "911 and Porsche World" quoted the owner (Bob Snodgrass?) of Florida's Champion Porsche as saying that the real enthusiasts, who used to buy Porsches, no longer do. He used to worry that his customers knew more about the cars than his sales staff -- he doesn't worry about this anymore, and it's not because his sales staff is more knowledgeable. I don't want to anger any 996 owners, but I think that the knowledgeable and enthusiastic 996-owning rennlisters are probably less representative of 996 owners in general than are their 993, 964, and 901-owning counterparts, who are more typical of 993, 964, and 901 owners generally.

Ed Bighi

Todd, I read the same article you did. Don't worry about upsetting anyone. The factory has been upsetting me for a few years now. The article mentions that the average 996 buyer is a lot less knowledgeable of Porsches in general than in the past. I figured that makes sense since the majority of 996 owners are first time Porsche owners. Also worthy of mention, is that cabriolets are outselling coupes. Nothing against cabrios or the people who drive them, but it is a well known fact that the majority of die-hard enthusiasts will always gravitate to a coupe. That's the way it has always been. Of course, that theory does not apply to the boxster since it is only offered in convertible form. But it is fine car that was concieved as a convertible. I personally like the boxster and despise the 996 which was based on the boxster. The reason for this is that the boxster is a completely original concept which is based on no other Porsche. Sure it can be considered an evolution of the 550 or 914, but when it came out, it shared no parts with any other Porsche. It was also not intended to replace any previous car. So nobody was upstet by the whole enterprise. Neither was I and I raved about it. Not exactly the car for me, but I would not kick it out of my garage. But when they introduced the 996 and killed off the 993, which I consider perfect, I was pissed to say the least. The debate still goes on today. I am still pissed now since I have not gotten used to the car. While it is a more comfortable car, there are plenty of fast comfortable cars out there which are every bit as good as the 996. Why don't I drive them or the 996? Because they don't feel like 911's. When I got into 911's, comfort was the furthest thing from my mind and still is. 996 Turbo? Sure, give me one and I'll sell it the next day to grab a 993 turbo and with the extra cash send it over to ANDIAL for 571hp job. 996GT2? Sure, give me one and I'll sell it the next day to pick up a 993GT2evo full-race track car. Or better yet, a good 935/76 or 77 to have some fun with. Actually, I'll take those two over any car. 996? Sure give me one and I'll sell it the next day to grab a 964 turbo 3.6. I really like that one. Maybe even more than the 993 turbo which is a hair too forgiving for my tastes, but I still love. To me that is a perfect daily driver. It has more creature comforts than I really need, but it'll do. Maybe when I become an old man, my needs will change. But right now I want my 911's without coolant pipes everywhere, a big fan in the back making those wonderful sounds, wipers parked on the drivers side of the windshield and gobs of trailing throtle oversteer to give me that advantage on hairpins so I can fly by Z06's, not to mention making the talented look good and the untalented hopelessly inadequate. And last, but not least, I want my 911's with the same non-decorative dashboard and gages that Hurley Haywood, Hans Stuck, Vic Elford, Jacky Ickx, Jochen Mass, Bob Wollek, John Fitzpatrick, Rolf Stommelen, Bob Akin, Peter Gregg, Jim Busby, Ted Field and many others looked at while putting themselves, and that wonderful car in the history books. The beauty of that beast is that even though it changed so much, the basic tub barely did. And it was adapted to every type of environment from the race track to the deserts of Africa to dominate. An amazing history that is the air-cooled 911's alone. And even though the 996 is out now getting all the r&d the factory could give it, a well prepared air-cooled car could still do amazing things. I do so every weekend with mine against 996's and other cars, and find it much sweeter to do it in that machine. Long live my great friend, the air-cooled 911.

M758

Guys,
Thanks for your views. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

....And thanks for not reaming me a new one like the guys on the 996 forum did!