Rick Lee

A few months ago, while some local air-cooled enthusiasts and I were doing an engine swap, a 996 owner showed up for the party. He was a great guy and his car rocked. But I couldn't help but think it was like a turd in the punchbowl. When he left we started cracking jokes like "Was that his wife's car?" or "When's the lease up on that?" No sleight to the owner. Again, he's a great guy, a real enthusiast and his car could kick all our a$ses. But a 996 just does not have IT.

Rob in WA

Palting in action.

The wisdom of Palting:

"This is a 911:



Air cooled, flat 6, 2L, 130 HP, 1070kg, built 1963.

If it's not air cooled, it's not a 911.
If it's not a flat 6, it's not a 911.
If it's not a 2L engine, it's not a 911.
If it's not 130 HP, it's not a 911.
If it's not 1070 kg, it's not a 911.
If it's not built in 1963, its not a 911.

If you want to be a purist, be a purist."

This debate has gone on since the 70's.

North American production #s for 2002:

Boxster 7071
Boxster S 5039
Coupe 1981
Cab 3605
C4 Cab 1438
C4S 1668
Targa 662
Turbo 2107
Cayenne TBD

If you include the Turbo more coupes were sold, but I guess "real enthusiasts" don't buy Turbos.
Also the 996 cab has the same drag coefficient and is virtually as stiff as the coupe. Why not track it and cruise home w/the top down . If you take a peek on the 996 board I think you will find plenty of "real enthusiasts."

And no I've never let the valet park my baby.

Let's just be happy were all blessed and drive a Porsche.

Cheers

Speedraser

Every 901-type 911, through the '89 Carrera 3.2 and 3.3 Turbo, is clearly a 911; same basic body/chassis structure, same basic engine (air-cooled, flat 6), same basic suspension, same basic interior (with real, big instruments -- the tach on a 996/Boxster is tiny and the needle swings through LESS than 180 degrees from idle to redline, and let us not forget the even smaller speedo that needs a digital supplement) with a "functional" design rather than the "styled" design of the 996.

The 964 brought a new platform and coil springs, but otherwise holds true to the original and is clearly a 911 in spirit (including air-cooling); arguably a 964 rather than a 911, but the soul is 911.

The 993 is the same thing with a revised rear suspension and a very successful facelift, and is still true to the 901 in every way (again, including air-cooling). It is still a 911 in spirit; arguably a 993 rather than a 911, but the soul is 911.

The 996 is a totally DIFFERENT car. It is a very worthy car, but basic shape does not alone make a 911. Nor does simply having a flat-6 or a rear engine; the 914-6 and Boxster have flat-6 engines and the Corvair had a flat-6 in the tail, but none of these is a 911. A 996 is a great car in many ways (better than air-cooled 911s in some ways, inferior in others), but it is a 996 rather than a 911.
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Rob in WA

[quote]Originally posted by Speedraser:

<strong>the tach on a 996/Boxster is tiny and the needle swings through LESS than 180 degrees from idle to redline</strong><hr></blockquote>



Lee: "Who decides what a 911 is? The owners? The drivers? Enthusiasts? Obviously they'd like to think so, but ultimately the moniker is bestowed upon the cars by the manufacturer. Anything else is just conceit."

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Speedraser

Rob,
That's an early 996. As I'm sure you know, the later ones have a larger digital display area in the tach's bottom, which compresses the tach further and reduces the needle's sweep to fewer than 180 degrees. I think that's yet another step in the wrong direction. Cool picture though. Where was it taken?

Rob in WA

It's a MY01 taken in Spain. <a href="http://hobbystage.net/porsche/media.cgi?site=carlos&folder=*&group=1&page=*&id=1029445542-002202" target="_blank">HERE's</a> a movie of it, 180 mph one handed.

Jay H

Unfortunately, Porsche felt that the air cooled 911 motor would not be emmission compliant or noise compliant in the comming years. Noise and emmissions regulations are getting harsher and more strict by the year all over the world, so water cooling the 996 motor was probably a must for Porsche. Water cooling keeps temperatures down and noise down.

Also, people in general are getting bigger, especially in North America. Frame sizes are getting larger. The original 911 was designed around much smaller European frames in the early 60's. In order to keep sales up and appeal of the 911 up, Porsche had to build a bigger car. Hence another reason for an entire platform change.

So, Porsche almost had to make all these changes in order to keep up with all the other competitors.

I would further bet that sales to true enthusiast buyers are rather slim compared to all sales of 996's. Most sales are to individuals that are buying the car for status or some other reason. They want a comfortable, fast and luxurious car to match the BMW, Merc or whatever they just traded to get a Porsche. Porsche has to comply to some degree to these buyers because they make up most of the sales.

Though, I think enough enthusiats have b*tched to Porsche and were heard due to the changes for 2002. Those cars are supposed to offer much more feel and noise (the good noise!).

If Porsche doesn't change with the times, then we'll be all searching for the 911 part at swap meets because Porsche went belly up. We should be lucky that we have the 996 because a water cooled 911 is better than no 911...and it keeps the parts counter open at the dealership for our air cooled cars...

Jay
90 964

Ed Bighi

The 964 and 993 are 911's through and through. Why? Well there are the usual reasons described above, but the truth lies in the parts. If I need a door for a 73 911S for example, and all there is laying around is 97 993 door, I can use it. It will fit beautifully. If I want to put the motor from a 930 turbo in a 70 912, it will fit. Transmission, the same. And on and on. The same is true for all 356 series cars, because they were all 356's. But don't go trying to put 993 parts in a 356. Because the 993 is a 911 and not a 356. The same with a 996. Don't go putting in 996 parts in a 911T, because the 996 isn't a 911. Again, this 911 interchangeability is present in every evolutionary car, much like the Gelaendewagen from Mercedes or the Unimog. Too bad our overly sanitized world has put an end to some things we love.

At least I can still go out and buy a brand new G-Wagen or a new Cessna 182, which is a 182, not just by name. Or a brand new Omega Speedmaster Professional. Or even a brand new Patek Philippe Calatrava. Thank god those manufacturers aren't trying to change my mind. Thank god Lotus does not have the money to f... up the Esprit. Sure, give me better reliability, but don't change the product for the sake of the masses. That is a job for Toyota or GM to do. Oh how I long for the good old days when certain products just weren't made for everybody. And since I mentioned watches, here is a good comparison. The 911, 964, and 993 are like mechanical watches. The 996 is a quartz. A quartz might keep better time, but it will never make the right sounds or have the character necessary to become my pride and joy.

If anyone asks what kind of 911 inspires me, the pictures below should help. Even though the factory called it a 935, it was still a 911 since all the parts that make this beast will bolt on to a 911. Besides having the same chassis as a 911, it was closer to a basic 911 than a 996 is. But the factory deemed it different enough to name it 935. In the end, it is not the wholesale use of the name 911 that bothers me. What bothers me is that Porsche stopped making 911's.

Andreas.

I'm completely agree with you Rob in WA, and Jay H. For me , Porsche AG and all oficialy, the 996 is a 911 no matter what some fellows (chaps!) says!. Even if the technologie has change, even if the design has change. Still a 911! This is called EVOLUTION, There are some objectives in the world of cars,Sport cars, as security, enhacement of driving, power, confort,Aerodinamics,design. Etc. The result is the 996 (911).
This made the 996 follow the tradition evolution of the 993 over the 964, then the 964 over the SC and on and on...
So when i still heard as the 996 has not the same sound as the older ones i just , who cares about, if in place of that i get real performance, security etc!..
There's nothing to do. Is like that..for me again what some people think about the 996 is just PEANUTS. !
I'll get shoot of this, but i prefer to have a real idea of what's going on with the 911 more just than a hearth feeling, wich one make me still live in the past.
Saying that i love all the 911 more than any other model, brand.

"You can't hide all this with just one finger !"

Rob in WA

Seeing as my Patek has been to Geneva twice in the last 18 months and I'm forced to wear my Tag, the watch arguement fails miserably; for me anyway.

935, you mean like the GT2/3? Most of the 996 owners I know agree that Porsche NEEDs to get back into racing big time (they're also just as sick about the Cayenne as the rest of the Porsche community). They also refer to their cars as 996s unless talking w/non Porsche-philes. I do still miss some things about my Targa (if the wifey didn't have a say I would've kept it), mostly how no one could really drive it but me. Though rather than punishing you for the lack of skills like my old Targa, the 996 actually enhances your skills and even though it is slightly bigger then a 993, the 996 is lighter...Evolution. Like I said before just - Thank the Lord we Drive a Porsche, no matter which one it is - to each his own.
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Tom F

My two cents' worth. The Boxster and the 996 are both great sports cars, and they are certainly Porsches. The difference is that the market has caught up with Porsche. Now, BMW, Mercedes and Acura offer some meaningful competition. Also, Ferrari is certainly back on top of the high end market. This contrasts with the 70s and early 80s, when Porsche was the only car company who could seem to build a special car. I'll bet that's when most of us became intrigued with the cars. The change in market conditions is the reason why Porsche must pursue different approaches, i.e., the Cayenne. The points that still distinguishes them are still the same, just not so marked, and their new vehicle finish is still tops.

993RS

This discussion is endless and seems to really rile some people. IMHO: "Much ado about nothing". Me, I always refer to my car as a "993". I think of it as a 993. In fact, I tend to think in terms of the classification of the discussion forums. A 911 for me goes up to the 3.2 Carrera.

richard glickel

I think Ed's correct, a 996 is NOT a 911.

This is not intended as a negative criticism towards the 996 in any way. They're just different cars from the same manufacturer, years apart.

"If it's not built in 1963 it's not a 911"? No, that would be the FIRST 911, certainly not the last. The final iteration of the 911 was the 993. That's about as far as the "evolutionary" trail goes for the 911.

Now, you can watch the 996 evolve as Porsche inserts its turbo-charged 8-cylinder engine in that car within year or so. Then you can ask whether the Cayenne is a 996!

Richard
'87 Carrera-3.6L (mutant)

JonSeigel

I own a 964. It just occurred to me that when I get on Rennlist, I check the 964 board and, if I have the time, 911 and 993 boards. Honestly, I've never even *thought* of checking the 996 board. It just had never occurred to me.

NTI 911E

IMO, A 911 is what Porsche AG says it is. Porsche says the 996 is a 911. Enough said.

To me, it's not so much of a stretch as long as they're still using a flat-6. However, if I see a V8 in a production 911, I will probably dispute that name