Got to experience "trailing throttle oversteer" today...
05-02-2009, 02:00 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
You can and should lift slightly if you apex early or run wide in a corner. Do not panic and jump all the way off the gas.
A small lift will dial in some TTO, tighten your line and get you back on line. Lessen your steering input at the same time and also be prepared to get right back on the gas.
I've never instructed with the "don't ever lift" philosophy...you can understeer right into the guardrail at places like the Glen by not lifting. TTO is a tool...use it carefully though!
A small lift will dial in some TTO, tighten your line and get you back on line. Lessen your steering input at the same time and also be prepared to get right back on the gas.
I've never instructed with the "don't ever lift" philosophy...you can understeer right into the guardrail at places like the Glen by not lifting. TTO is a tool...use it carefully though!
05-02-2009, 02:03 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
years ago before I got my 85 911, read an article when they still ran 911s for the IROC. I dont recall the driver, but he commented he hated to drive 911s in the IROC.
he explained that if you get into a corner in a 911 too hot, lifting/braking is NOT an option. just stand on the gas and steer like a mad man.
over the years I have come to completely understand that comment. Fortunately, I learned that on the track under the guidance of good instructors. I THINK I have finally ingrained into my head the knowledge/reaction to give it gas if I start to get loose or some rotation as I learn to drive faster/harder.
I was learning a different line into turn 7 at the end of the back straight at MidOhio a few weeks ago. apex a little early and as you approach apex get into the gas and push to the outer edge of the track before attacking the ESSES/madness. definitely need to trust that the car will dig and grab when you breathe into the gas.
Woo hoo!
he explained that if you get into a corner in a 911 too hot, lifting/braking is NOT an option. just stand on the gas and steer like a mad man.
over the years I have come to completely understand that comment. Fortunately, I learned that on the track under the guidance of good instructors. I THINK I have finally ingrained into my head the knowledge/reaction to give it gas if I start to get loose or some rotation as I learn to drive faster/harder.
I was learning a different line into turn 7 at the end of the back straight at MidOhio a few weeks ago. apex a little early and as you approach apex get into the gas and push to the outer edge of the track before attacking the ESSES/madness. definitely need to trust that the car will dig and grab when you breathe into the gas.
Woo hoo!
05-02-2009, 09:06 PM
#33
Addicted Specialist
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Good discussion and nice input from folks who know their cars. Moreover, I will concur that threads like this underscore the importance that a proper DE with good instructors can help make one a safer driver. But if I may throw a wrench in the works, NO amount of skill can compensate for bad judgment.
WRT the original post, you my friend were fortunate that you had distance in front of you to stay on the throttle. Had you done everything identically the same, but were closing in on a vehicle in front of you, you would have been left with only one choice: lift-and-steer or smack into what's in front ...clearly your better choice would be the former. And the best choice yet was not to approach that turn at that rate without a clear line of sight.
Sorry, I am not being a smart aleck at all, nor trying to shame you. My only concern is that others less skilled than you, me, and even the best driver short of pro-rally can take that head knowledge and seat experience and still find themselves in a whole world of hurt if the noodle makes a poor decision. No disrespect to you, really. I file the aforementioned in my one BTDT file. Just thought I'd add in my $.02 as a little (or even copious amounts) of knowledge can be a dangerous thing if not implemented responsibly. A public road is shared by us all, and we all share the burden of safe driving. End of sermon
Edward
WRT the original post, you my friend were fortunate that you had distance in front of you to stay on the throttle. Had you done everything identically the same, but were closing in on a vehicle in front of you, you would have been left with only one choice: lift-and-steer or smack into what's in front ...clearly your better choice would be the former. And the best choice yet was not to approach that turn at that rate without a clear line of sight.
Sorry, I am not being a smart aleck at all, nor trying to shame you. My only concern is that others less skilled than you, me, and even the best driver short of pro-rally can take that head knowledge and seat experience and still find themselves in a whole world of hurt if the noodle makes a poor decision. No disrespect to you, really. I file the aforementioned in my one BTDT file. Just thought I'd add in my $.02 as a little (or even copious amounts) of knowledge can be a dangerous thing if not implemented responsibly. A public road is shared by us all, and we all share the burden of safe driving. End of sermon
Edward
05-02-2009, 10:07 PM
#34
Racer
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Good discussion and nice input from folks who know their cars. Moreover, I will concur that threads like this underscore the importance that a proper DE with good instructors can help make one a safer driver. But if I may throw a wrench in the works, NO amount of skill can compensate for bad judgment.
WRT the original post, you my friend were fortunate that you had distance in front of you to stay on the throttle. Had you done everything identically the same, but were closing in on a vehicle in front of you, you would have been left with only one choice: lift-and-steer or smack into what's in front ...clearly your better choice would be the former. And the best choice yet was not to approach that turn at that rate without a clear line of sight.
Sorry, I am not being a smart aleck at all, nor trying to shame you. My only concern is that others less skilled than you, me, and even the best driver short of pro-rally can take that head knowledge and seat experience and still find themselves in a whole world of hurt if the noodle makes a poor decision. No disrespect to you, really. I file the aforementioned in my one BTDT file. Just thought I'd add in my $.02 as a little (or even copious amounts) of knowledge can be a dangerous thing if not implemented responsibly. A public road is shared by us all, and we all share the burden of safe driving. End of sermon
Edward
WRT the original post, you my friend were fortunate that you had distance in front of you to stay on the throttle. Had you done everything identically the same, but were closing in on a vehicle in front of you, you would have been left with only one choice: lift-and-steer or smack into what's in front ...clearly your better choice would be the former. And the best choice yet was not to approach that turn at that rate without a clear line of sight.
Sorry, I am not being a smart aleck at all, nor trying to shame you. My only concern is that others less skilled than you, me, and even the best driver short of pro-rally can take that head knowledge and seat experience and still find themselves in a whole world of hurt if the noodle makes a poor decision. No disrespect to you, really. I file the aforementioned in my one BTDT file. Just thought I'd add in my $.02 as a little (or even copious amounts) of knowledge can be a dangerous thing if not implemented responsibly. A public road is shared by us all, and we all share the burden of safe driving. End of sermon
Edward
There is no way at all I would construe your comments as insulting in any way. By my own description, I was driving beyond the limits which are acceptable on the street. There is no excuse for that. I admit wrongdoing most certainly.
Believe me, that is the FIRST thing I thought after the dust had settled, and I was tooling down the road safely. However, the truck was well ahead of me, I had the luxury of another lane on the bridge if I needed it, in this case- the stem road is visible from the ramp entrance. But I was just flat WRONG.
I was acting foolishly, always the boy racer, and got lucky. No two ways about it. One tends to think a one lane offramp is a free for all playground. How wrong I was.
You are right for chastising me. I could certainly spewed a long line of excuses in responce to your post, but we both know I was wrong.
Here's to responsible driving - keep it on the track as much as possible.
Jeff
05-03-2009, 01:32 AM
#35
Poseur
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
When you consider how these cars were set up for racing back in the 60s and 70s with their relatively crude suspensions and unsophisticated tires, it's a wonder Porsche ever won any races,--it's a testament to the incredible driving skills of those Porsche Pilots. When you look up "manly men" in Wikipedia it probably has a picture of Mark Donohue in there.
05-03-2009, 12:49 PM
#37
Team Owner
Holly crap something just like that happened to me Saturday too. I got annoyed and it was my own fault but fortunately it was a happy ending .
I was in the fast lane of a 3 lane highway and trying to pass a tractor trailer in the middle lane. Some turd in front of the tractor trailer pulled into the fast lane for some reason so i couldn't pass . of course now I am getting peppered with highway rocks from the tractor trailer . I was tryinhg to stay up with the guy in front to stay right in front of the tractor trailer and he wouldn't speed up or pull over .. I decided to drop right back. sweep over to the slow lane and acelerate by both clowns. ( this was my little bit of road rage mistake as I was quite angry ) . I drifted back droped in to third and floored it as I swept across to pass the tractor trailer in the slow lane .
As I pulled into the slow accelerating to go past the truck .. there it was .. another rig in the slow lane hitting the brakes. I had no choice but to hit the brakes as i was coming into the lane, and around she started to come, it was realy like slow motion for me .. guess the neurons are firing full speed at that point and it feels like the matrix.
Fortunatly there was an on ramp there so it expanded to four lanes. ( probably where the slow moving rig came from ) . As the back end came around I was allready steering into it calculating where I needed to go. I steered towards the on ramp now which was the next lane over and came off the brakes and just enough on to the gas that the car would setle as I did not want to unsetle the car further by hammering on to the gas . As soon as I did that the back end quickly stepped back in as I kind of drifted into the on ramp . I stayed on the gas as to not initiate a pendulum and accelerated back onto the highway in front of the rig.
Definitely scared the crap out of me and I was definitely in the wrong. I let my emotions get the better of me .. and the stone chips in the font of may car serve as a reminder .... defensive driving will keep me out of trouble no matter how everyone else drives..
I was in the fast lane of a 3 lane highway and trying to pass a tractor trailer in the middle lane. Some turd in front of the tractor trailer pulled into the fast lane for some reason so i couldn't pass . of course now I am getting peppered with highway rocks from the tractor trailer . I was tryinhg to stay up with the guy in front to stay right in front of the tractor trailer and he wouldn't speed up or pull over .. I decided to drop right back. sweep over to the slow lane and acelerate by both clowns. ( this was my little bit of road rage mistake as I was quite angry ) . I drifted back droped in to third and floored it as I swept across to pass the tractor trailer in the slow lane .
As I pulled into the slow accelerating to go past the truck .. there it was .. another rig in the slow lane hitting the brakes. I had no choice but to hit the brakes as i was coming into the lane, and around she started to come, it was realy like slow motion for me .. guess the neurons are firing full speed at that point and it feels like the matrix.
Fortunatly there was an on ramp there so it expanded to four lanes. ( probably where the slow moving rig came from ) . As the back end came around I was allready steering into it calculating where I needed to go. I steered towards the on ramp now which was the next lane over and came off the brakes and just enough on to the gas that the car would setle as I did not want to unsetle the car further by hammering on to the gas . As soon as I did that the back end quickly stepped back in as I kind of drifted into the on ramp . I stayed on the gas as to not initiate a pendulum and accelerated back onto the highway in front of the rig.
Definitely scared the crap out of me and I was definitely in the wrong. I let my emotions get the better of me .. and the stone chips in the font of may car serve as a reminder .... defensive driving will keep me out of trouble no matter how everyone else drives..
05-03-2009, 11:26 PM
#40
In addition to DE and AX one of the best learning tools to understand and feel both understeer and oversteer is a wet skid pad. In this totaly safe setting you can learn what snap oversteer feels like and how to correct it. You can learn to spin and control where the car is going. If you can find an opportunity to put your car on a skid pad do it!
