Need help w/often asked question-kinda long too
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3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3
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Need help w/often asked question-kinda long too
Ok, I am sure that you folks have ben asked this a thousand times, but I'm kinda new here and I ask for your patience. I am extremely interested in selling my VW GTI VR6 and graduating up to a used Porsche, but I am unsure which year to look at. I am currently looking for either a '72-'73 911S (I like the hp/weight ratio and the clean, pure 911 lines and simplicity but i am concerned about reliability and the fact that a car like this would be approaching 30 years of age) or an '87-'89 964. I hear that these cars switched to a stronger g50(?) tranny and are a more modern and comfortable car (nice but quite a bit heavier I am sure with modern
conveniences)and may be a bit more reliable. What kind of mods would be necessary to keep the car running well? Pop-off valves etc.? I live in the N.E. and this car would be a daily driver but I would also like to gently massage the car over time for some club autocrossing and time trial fun-perhaps brakes, suspension, tires and a little TLC to the engine. Reliability is a concern as I am on somewhat of a budget (I would like to keep car costs below $30K if possible and reapirs at a minimum) and as I mentioned prior this will be a daily driver. Thank you for your patience any for your help and comments.
conveniences)and may be a bit more reliable. What kind of mods would be necessary to keep the car running well? Pop-off valves etc.? I live in the N.E. and this car would be a daily driver but I would also like to gently massage the car over time for some club autocrossing and time trial fun-perhaps brakes, suspension, tires and a little TLC to the engine. Reliability is a concern as I am on somewhat of a budget (I would like to keep car costs below $30K if possible and reapirs at a minimum) and as I mentioned prior this will be a daily driver. Thank you for your patience any for your help and comments.
Technical Specialist
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Rennlist
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,865
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From: TX
Great questions that we all had to ask at one point in time!
First, go buy Peter Zimmermann's "Used 911 Story". He describes the strengths and weaknesses of each model from 1965 forward. Conventional wisdom is buy the newest you can afford, since Porsche has, for the most part, continually refined the 911 series. The 87-89 911 you mentioned has the G-50 transmission (an improvement over the prior 915 transmission), a hydraulic clutch, and a bit more horsepower. Engines in the 911SC and follow-on Carrera have generally been very long lasting. 911 bodies have been totally made of galvinized steel since the mid-1970's, which would contribute to longevity. Any of the models can be tweaked for track or more spirited driving, so that capability shouldn't weigh too heavily (although if you anticipate wanting to get into racing, it's much cheaper to buy someone else's racer than build your own).
When you put your budget together, make sure you leave monies for registration, insurance, a pre-purchase inspection (mandatory), and a slush fund for soon needed or desired fixes or upgrades. I'd suggest setting aside $3-$5K. I recently exchanged notes with one person who had wheels on his recently bought 911 that couldn't be balanced. Turns out the previous owner never drove above 60 and didn't know they couldn't be balanced. That person has an unexpected $1000 outlay to fix it. Point is, stuff can happen, can you should leave yourself some cushion.
You'll probably gets lots more advice from the board. Don't be shy about asking more questions!
First, go buy Peter Zimmermann's "Used 911 Story". He describes the strengths and weaknesses of each model from 1965 forward. Conventional wisdom is buy the newest you can afford, since Porsche has, for the most part, continually refined the 911 series. The 87-89 911 you mentioned has the G-50 transmission (an improvement over the prior 915 transmission), a hydraulic clutch, and a bit more horsepower. Engines in the 911SC and follow-on Carrera have generally been very long lasting. 911 bodies have been totally made of galvinized steel since the mid-1970's, which would contribute to longevity. Any of the models can be tweaked for track or more spirited driving, so that capability shouldn't weigh too heavily (although if you anticipate wanting to get into racing, it's much cheaper to buy someone else's racer than build your own).
When you put your budget together, make sure you leave monies for registration, insurance, a pre-purchase inspection (mandatory), and a slush fund for soon needed or desired fixes or upgrades. I'd suggest setting aside $3-$5K. I recently exchanged notes with one person who had wheels on his recently bought 911 that couldn't be balanced. Turns out the previous owner never drove above 60 and didn't know they couldn't be balanced. That person has an unexpected $1000 outlay to fix it. Point is, stuff can happen, can you should leave yourself some cushion.
You'll probably gets lots more advice from the board. Don't be shy about asking more questions!
Thread Starter
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2001
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Hey Bill, thanks a lot for your info, I shall take it into account. So far it kinda sounds like it is hard to go wrong with either of my choices as long as the car in Q. has been properly taken care of. Thanks again for the advice and I expect to posting quite a few questions and learning quite a bit.
M
M
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From: San Jose, CA
As Bill said, we've all been at this point at one time or another. Now is definitely the time to ask EVERY question you can think of.
Bill had some great points. I also thought I'd give you a link to the Early 911 FAQ (which covers them up until the early 964 models, if I remember correctly.) It's http://www.rennlist.org/FAQ/index.htm
I'm pretty sure this FAQ covers the mods like the pop-off air boxes for the SC's, the Carrera chain tensioners, etc. It should also give guidance on the engine and transmission changes over the years.
Daily driver in the NE, eh? Hmm, and since you want to do timetrialing in the future, you probably aren't after a cabriolet. In fact, you might want to stick with coupes. (Uh oh, I bet I will now incur the wrath of the Targa owners!)
Remember, the Porsche 911 bodies were fully galvanized at, I believe, 1977, so that might be a consideration for you. You don't want to deal with rust, especially in your climate.
BTW, I hate to be nit-picky, but the '87 - '89's were still 911's; the 964's started in '89 (for the all-wheel drive C4's) and '90 (for the rear-wheel drive C2's.) I wanted to clear this up, just in case.
I own a 964 (1990 C2 Cab) and think it's a great daily driver. It has ABS, good heating and a/c, new suspension, 3.6 liter engine, and air bags. I'm not sure how much ice & snow you get in your area, but you might consider a C4 since you want to use your 911 as a daily driver.
Hope this helps! Good luck!!
-- Melissa
Bill had some great points. I also thought I'd give you a link to the Early 911 FAQ (which covers them up until the early 964 models, if I remember correctly.) It's http://www.rennlist.org/FAQ/index.htm
I'm pretty sure this FAQ covers the mods like the pop-off air boxes for the SC's, the Carrera chain tensioners, etc. It should also give guidance on the engine and transmission changes over the years.
Daily driver in the NE, eh? Hmm, and since you want to do timetrialing in the future, you probably aren't after a cabriolet. In fact, you might want to stick with coupes. (Uh oh, I bet I will now incur the wrath of the Targa owners!)
Remember, the Porsche 911 bodies were fully galvanized at, I believe, 1977, so that might be a consideration for you. You don't want to deal with rust, especially in your climate.
BTW, I hate to be nit-picky, but the '87 - '89's were still 911's; the 964's started in '89 (for the all-wheel drive C4's) and '90 (for the rear-wheel drive C2's.) I wanted to clear this up, just in case.
I own a 964 (1990 C2 Cab) and think it's a great daily driver. It has ABS, good heating and a/c, new suspension, 3.6 liter engine, and air bags. I'm not sure how much ice & snow you get in your area, but you might consider a C4 since you want to use your 911 as a daily driver.
Hope this helps! Good luck!!
-- Melissa
Instructor
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 111
Likes: 1
Grab the latest issue of Excellence and check out the '78 to '89 Pcars featured in the Market Report: I think these cars represent the 911 range you can afford.
30K should get you a sweet '89 Carrera. I own a '78 SC Targa and recommend the SC line without question. I also must agree that you should keep $$ in reserve for the things you will inevitably want to do. I suppose the "buy the latest and best you can find" would prevent you from NOT spending EVERY penny, so do consider that. But when all is said and done, you will be changing the car and you want the financials to do this.
Jw
30K should get you a sweet '89 Carrera. I own a '78 SC Targa and recommend the SC line without question. I also must agree that you should keep $$ in reserve for the things you will inevitably want to do. I suppose the "buy the latest and best you can find" would prevent you from NOT spending EVERY penny, so do consider that. But when all is said and done, you will be changing the car and you want the financials to do this.
Jw
Race Car
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,929
Likes: 70
From: Los Angeles
One way to go (and it's not for everyone) is to get the light weight and looks of the early cars, and then add the power and reliability of the later cars.
Imagine 2500 pounds and 283 hp, with the stopping power of a Turbo, and decent AC to boot. Add to that (in California, at least) no smog inspections.
$30,000 will do it, but it would mean keeping the VW while you get the work done.
Personally, I wouldn't do it any other way.
Click on the picture for a larger version.
Stats:
• 3.6 liter engine from a 1993 C2
• 1986 Turbo brakes
• 915 transaxle with 7:31 ring & pinion
• ZF limited slip differential
• Transaxle oil cooler
• 21/30mm torsion bars
• 22mm front and rear adjustable swaybars
• 1974 aluminum trailing A-arms
• Adjustable factory spring plates
• Custom-valved Bilstein Sport shocks
• Cyntex performance chip
• ZucZ power flow cone air intake
• 1-7/8-inch Headers, Flowmaster muffler
• Dual front fender oil coolers
• SC rear steel flares
• Fiberglass RS-style rear bumper
• 964 decklid with retractable spoiler
• 7x8x16 polished-spoke Fuchs
When it's done, it should have 280 hp and weigh 2500 lbs. But that's the key part of it -- "when it's done" -- can be a long way off, which isn't the case if you buy a restored 73S or a mint 89 Carrera. It's a lot of work, and your resale prospects are trickier. But it gives you the chance to have your choice of the best of what every era of Porsche had to offer.
[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: JackOlsen ]
Imagine 2500 pounds and 283 hp, with the stopping power of a Turbo, and decent AC to boot. Add to that (in California, at least) no smog inspections.
$30,000 will do it, but it would mean keeping the VW while you get the work done.
Personally, I wouldn't do it any other way.
Click on the picture for a larger version.
Stats:
• 3.6 liter engine from a 1993 C2
• 1986 Turbo brakes
• 915 transaxle with 7:31 ring & pinion
• ZF limited slip differential
• Transaxle oil cooler
• 21/30mm torsion bars
• 22mm front and rear adjustable swaybars
• 1974 aluminum trailing A-arms
• Adjustable factory spring plates
• Custom-valved Bilstein Sport shocks
• Cyntex performance chip
• ZucZ power flow cone air intake
• 1-7/8-inch Headers, Flowmaster muffler
• Dual front fender oil coolers
• SC rear steel flares
• Fiberglass RS-style rear bumper
• 964 decklid with retractable spoiler
• 7x8x16 polished-spoke Fuchs
When it's done, it should have 280 hp and weigh 2500 lbs. But that's the key part of it -- "when it's done" -- can be a long way off, which isn't the case if you buy a restored 73S or a mint 89 Carrera. It's a lot of work, and your resale prospects are trickier. But it gives you the chance to have your choice of the best of what every era of Porsche had to offer.
[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: JackOlsen ]
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Instructor
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 121
Likes: 6
Bill mentioned it and I hope it wasn't overlooked in all the dialogue.
PRE PURCHASE INSPECTION - Mandatory
When you have decided on a car. Take it to a reputable and reliable Porsche shop. Someone that this is their primary business. Hopefully Bill can get you connected to the right place in the NE.
I speak from experience.
I just returned to Porsche ownership after a 10 year absence. I knew better. I sold a totally restored 75S, SC Flares, total leather interior ( including head liner )
upgraded 915 and a 3.0 engine. 10 years ago.
To what I affectionately call the "junkyard dog" 77 Euro Carrera w/3.2. My old car was a daily driver and it was maintained by one of the finest wrench’s in the US. ( Won't mention his name, his backlog is about 4 months now ). So for me the bar is set very high. I did't get a PPI. My parts list is long. But I'll have car I can drive cross country without hesitation.
The PPI will give you a base on how well the car was maintained and what might be wrong at time. They won't catch everything.
So you still need funds to bring it up to a level you are comfortable with.
So for me using my old car as base. It's taking a bit of $$$$. And now I’m a DIY'r. Because of my remote location. Having a great time in the DIY mode. But not for everyone.
MY .02
PRE PURCHASE INSPECTION - Mandatory
When you have decided on a car. Take it to a reputable and reliable Porsche shop. Someone that this is their primary business. Hopefully Bill can get you connected to the right place in the NE.
I speak from experience.
I just returned to Porsche ownership after a 10 year absence. I knew better. I sold a totally restored 75S, SC Flares, total leather interior ( including head liner )
upgraded 915 and a 3.0 engine. 10 years ago.
To what I affectionately call the "junkyard dog" 77 Euro Carrera w/3.2. My old car was a daily driver and it was maintained by one of the finest wrench’s in the US. ( Won't mention his name, his backlog is about 4 months now ). So for me the bar is set very high. I did't get a PPI. My parts list is long. But I'll have car I can drive cross country without hesitation.
The PPI will give you a base on how well the car was maintained and what might be wrong at time. They won't catch everything.
So you still need funds to bring it up to a level you are comfortable with.
So for me using my old car as base. It's taking a bit of $$$$. And now I’m a DIY'r. Because of my remote location. Having a great time in the DIY mode. But not for everyone.
MY .02
