Down South We Call 'Em TARS - tire feedback please
02-10-2009, 11:42 PM
#16
Drifting
No! Consensus means nothing. It all depends on your individual needs. I can tell you that the Michelan X-ice is an amazing tire. Probably wouldn't do Ed much help as he lives in warm weather and has no need for a winter tire. X-ice still is a good tire but he has no need for such a tire. Some people want longevity and some people are willing to sacrifice everything for dry performance....etc
As for treadwear rating, it's essentially BS. Just read this article. It will explain how the tread wear rating really is not an accurate judgement between brands.
In the end it always seems to be a compromise between grip(wet/dry), longevity, and price. It is up to the individual to decide what is most important to him/her.
As for treadwear rating, it's essentially BS. Just read this article. It will explain how the tread wear rating really is not an accurate judgement between brands.
In the end it always seems to be a compromise between grip(wet/dry), longevity, and price. It is up to the individual to decide what is most important to him/her.
02-11-2009, 02:49 AM
#17
I haddah Google dat
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Yep, I place treadwear low on my own criteria.
I'm looking for a sticky street tire that doesn't hydroplane too much in water. I am most concerned about the drive I make between here and the coast over the coastal mountains. It can suddenly rain and you get caught out in the winter if your tires are stricktly dry weather tires. I also drive in severe heat in the summer.
If I had my preference, I'd have kept on buying the S-O3s, which had very stiff sidewalls and were so strong I had no worries about blowouts.
Unfortunately, this is the type of discussion that us 911 guys will be having more and more if we stick to our 16" Fuchs wheels. The major tire manufacturers are abandoning our wheels in favor of 17"+ diameter wheels, which is why I was exploring the unknown manufacturers. Like anyone else, I don't want to get ripped off or overpay for tires, but price alone is not an object. So far, the Pirelli P Zeros and Goodyear Eagle F1 tires seem like a solid alternative to the Bridgestones.
I'm looking for a sticky street tire that doesn't hydroplane too much in water. I am most concerned about the drive I make between here and the coast over the coastal mountains. It can suddenly rain and you get caught out in the winter if your tires are stricktly dry weather tires. I also drive in severe heat in the summer.
If I had my preference, I'd have kept on buying the S-O3s, which had very stiff sidewalls and were so strong I had no worries about blowouts.
Unfortunately, this is the type of discussion that us 911 guys will be having more and more if we stick to our 16" Fuchs wheels. The major tire manufacturers are abandoning our wheels in favor of 17"+ diameter wheels, which is why I was exploring the unknown manufacturers. Like anyone else, I don't want to get ripped off or overpay for tires, but price alone is not an object. So far, the Pirelli P Zeros and Goodyear Eagle F1 tires seem like a solid alternative to the Bridgestones.
02-11-2009, 02:51 AM
#18
I haddah Google dat
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This is the article that Neri kindly posted a link to: I am posting it for further discussion.
The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's (NHTSA) Uniform Tire Quality Grade Standards (UTQG) were originated to provide consumers with useful information to help them purchase tires based on their relative treadwear, traction and temperature capabilities. While it is required by law for most passenger car tires sold in the United States, it is not required for deep treaded light truck tires, winter/snow tires, temporary spare tires, trailer tires, tires under 12” in diameter and other select tires.
When looking at UTQG ratings it is important to realize that the Department of Transportation does not conduct the tests. The grades are assigned by the tire manufacturers based on their test results or those conducted by an independent testing company they have hired. The NHTSA has the right to inspect the tire manufacturer's data and can fine them if inconsistencies are found. While most new tire lines have their grades established when they are introduced, they are allowed a 6-month grace period to allow the tire manufacturer to test actual production tires. Once a grade is assigned it must be branded on the tire's upper sidewall and printed on its label.
Unfortunately, the rating that is of the most interest to consumers is the one that appears to be the least consistent. While the Treadwear Grade was originally intended to be assigned purely scientifically, it has also become a marketing tool used by manufacturers to help position and promote their tires.
Treadwear Grades
UTQG Treadwear Grades are based on actual road use in which the test tire is run in a vehicle convoy along with standardized Course Monitoring Tires. The vehicle repeatedly runs a prescribed 400-mile test loop in West Texas for a total of 7,200 miles. The vehicle can have its alignment set, air pressure checked and tires rotated every 800 miles. The test tire's and the Monitoring Tire's wear are measured during and at the conclusion of the test. The tire manufacturers then assign a Treadwear Grade based on the observed wear rates. The Course Monitoring Tire is assigned a grade and the test tire receives a grade indicating its relative treadwear. A grade of 100 would indicate that the tire tread would last as long as the test tire, 200 would indicate the tread would last twice as long, 300 would indicate three times as long, etc.
The problem with UTQG Treadwear Grades is that they are open to some interpretation on the part of the tire manufacturer because they are assigned after the tire has only experienced a little treadwear as it runs the 7,200 miles. This means that the tire manufacturers need to extrapolate their raw wear data when they are assigning Treadwear Grades, and that their grades can to some extent reflect how conservative or optimistic their marketing department is. Typically, comparing the Treadwear Grades of tire lines within a single brand is somewhat helpful, while attempting to compare the grades between different brands is not as helpful.
Traction Grades
UTQG Traction Grades are based on the tire's straight line wet coefficient of traction as the tire skids across the specified test surfaces. The UTQG traction test does not evaluate dry braking, dry cornering, wet cornering, or high speed hydroplaning resistance.
The Traction Grade is determined by installing properly inflated test tires on the instrumented axle of a "skid trailer." The skid trailer is pulled behind a truck at a constant 40 mph over wet asphalt and wet concrete test surfaces. Its brakes are momentarily locked and the axle sensors measure the tire's coefficient of friction (braking g forces) as it slides. Since this test evaluates a sliding tire at a constant 40 mph, it places more emphasis on the tire's tread compound and less emphasis on its tread design.
In 1997, the UTQG Traction Grades were revised to provide a new category of AA for the highest performing tires in addition to the earlier A, B and C grades. Previously the A grade had been the highest available and was awarded to tires that offered wet coefficients of traction above 0.47 g on asphalt and 0.35 g on concrete. Today the grades and their traction coefficients are as follows:
Traction
Grades Asphalt
g force Concrete
g force
AA Above 0.54 0.41
A Above 0.47 0.35
B Above 0.38 0.26
C Less Than 0.38 0.26
Unfortunately the immediate value of this change to tire buyers will be limited. Use of the AA grade will first be seen on new tires that are introduced after the standard was enacted and will then appear later on tires that have had the required wet traction all along, but were introduced when the single A was the highest available grade.
Temperature (Resistance) Grades
The UTQG Temperature Grade indicates the extent to which heat is generated/ or dissipated by a tire. If the tire is unable to dissipate the heat effectively or if the tire is unable to resist the destructive effects of heat buildup, its ability to run at high speeds is reduced. The grade is established by measuring a loaded tire's ability to operate at high speeds without failure by running an inflated test tire against a large diameter high-speed laboratory test wheel.
Temperature
Grades Speeds
in mph
A Over 115
B Between 100 to 115
C Between 85 to 100
Every tire sold in the United States must be capable of earning a "C" rating which indicates the ability to withstand 85 mph speeds. While there are numerous detail differences, this laboratory test is similar in nature to those used to confirm a tire's speed ratings.
Unfortunately for all of the money spent to test, brand and label the tires sold in the United States, the Uniform Tire Quality Grade Standards have not fully met their original goal of clearly informing consumers about the capabilities of their tires. Maybe it's because tires are so complex and their uses can be so varied, that the grades don't always reflect their actual performance in real world use.
The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's (NHTSA) Uniform Tire Quality Grade Standards (UTQG) were originated to provide consumers with useful information to help them purchase tires based on their relative treadwear, traction and temperature capabilities. While it is required by law for most passenger car tires sold in the United States, it is not required for deep treaded light truck tires, winter/snow tires, temporary spare tires, trailer tires, tires under 12” in diameter and other select tires.
When looking at UTQG ratings it is important to realize that the Department of Transportation does not conduct the tests. The grades are assigned by the tire manufacturers based on their test results or those conducted by an independent testing company they have hired. The NHTSA has the right to inspect the tire manufacturer's data and can fine them if inconsistencies are found. While most new tire lines have their grades established when they are introduced, they are allowed a 6-month grace period to allow the tire manufacturer to test actual production tires. Once a grade is assigned it must be branded on the tire's upper sidewall and printed on its label.
Unfortunately, the rating that is of the most interest to consumers is the one that appears to be the least consistent. While the Treadwear Grade was originally intended to be assigned purely scientifically, it has also become a marketing tool used by manufacturers to help position and promote their tires.
Treadwear Grades
UTQG Treadwear Grades are based on actual road use in which the test tire is run in a vehicle convoy along with standardized Course Monitoring Tires. The vehicle repeatedly runs a prescribed 400-mile test loop in West Texas for a total of 7,200 miles. The vehicle can have its alignment set, air pressure checked and tires rotated every 800 miles. The test tire's and the Monitoring Tire's wear are measured during and at the conclusion of the test. The tire manufacturers then assign a Treadwear Grade based on the observed wear rates. The Course Monitoring Tire is assigned a grade and the test tire receives a grade indicating its relative treadwear. A grade of 100 would indicate that the tire tread would last as long as the test tire, 200 would indicate the tread would last twice as long, 300 would indicate three times as long, etc.
The problem with UTQG Treadwear Grades is that they are open to some interpretation on the part of the tire manufacturer because they are assigned after the tire has only experienced a little treadwear as it runs the 7,200 miles. This means that the tire manufacturers need to extrapolate their raw wear data when they are assigning Treadwear Grades, and that their grades can to some extent reflect how conservative or optimistic their marketing department is. Typically, comparing the Treadwear Grades of tire lines within a single brand is somewhat helpful, while attempting to compare the grades between different brands is not as helpful.
Traction Grades
UTQG Traction Grades are based on the tire's straight line wet coefficient of traction as the tire skids across the specified test surfaces. The UTQG traction test does not evaluate dry braking, dry cornering, wet cornering, or high speed hydroplaning resistance.
The Traction Grade is determined by installing properly inflated test tires on the instrumented axle of a "skid trailer." The skid trailer is pulled behind a truck at a constant 40 mph over wet asphalt and wet concrete test surfaces. Its brakes are momentarily locked and the axle sensors measure the tire's coefficient of friction (braking g forces) as it slides. Since this test evaluates a sliding tire at a constant 40 mph, it places more emphasis on the tire's tread compound and less emphasis on its tread design.
In 1997, the UTQG Traction Grades were revised to provide a new category of AA for the highest performing tires in addition to the earlier A, B and C grades. Previously the A grade had been the highest available and was awarded to tires that offered wet coefficients of traction above 0.47 g on asphalt and 0.35 g on concrete. Today the grades and their traction coefficients are as follows:
Traction
Grades Asphalt
g force Concrete
g force
AA Above 0.54 0.41
A Above 0.47 0.35
B Above 0.38 0.26
C Less Than 0.38 0.26
Unfortunately the immediate value of this change to tire buyers will be limited. Use of the AA grade will first be seen on new tires that are introduced after the standard was enacted and will then appear later on tires that have had the required wet traction all along, but were introduced when the single A was the highest available grade.
Temperature (Resistance) Grades
The UTQG Temperature Grade indicates the extent to which heat is generated/ or dissipated by a tire. If the tire is unable to dissipate the heat effectively or if the tire is unable to resist the destructive effects of heat buildup, its ability to run at high speeds is reduced. The grade is established by measuring a loaded tire's ability to operate at high speeds without failure by running an inflated test tire against a large diameter high-speed laboratory test wheel.
Temperature
Grades Speeds
in mph
A Over 115
B Between 100 to 115
C Between 85 to 100
Every tire sold in the United States must be capable of earning a "C" rating which indicates the ability to withstand 85 mph speeds. While there are numerous detail differences, this laboratory test is similar in nature to those used to confirm a tire's speed ratings.
Unfortunately for all of the money spent to test, brand and label the tires sold in the United States, the Uniform Tire Quality Grade Standards have not fully met their original goal of clearly informing consumers about the capabilities of their tires. Maybe it's because tires are so complex and their uses can be so varied, that the grades don't always reflect their actual performance in real world use.
02-11-2009, 06:56 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
If you search on tire rack for matching pairs of your stated size, there are 44 different options. I have the Yokahama S-Drive. Good all around performance on street & track and also wet weather. Just don't use them in freezing temps. Under $100.00 per tire.
02-11-2009, 10:44 AM
#20
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The P Zero Nero M&S are the best tire for a sports car for rain that I have ever had. I have driven 60-65 mph in heavy rain and they grip the road well...
The potenza's were harder and were probably better for the track as the Pirelli seems to be abit softer... The potenza were terrible in the rain. I could not drive over 40 or id be slipping all over the place. Tire Rack also gives the Pirelli good wet marks.
Just my experience. Id buy them again. In the end, probably cant go wrong with Michellin, Pirelli's, Goodyears or Bridgestones each has its strengths and weaknesses based on how, where and what you drive... They are all premium brands with a premium price.
Just my .02.
The potenza's were harder and were probably better for the track as the Pirelli seems to be abit softer... The potenza were terrible in the rain. I could not drive over 40 or id be slipping all over the place. Tire Rack also gives the Pirelli good wet marks.
Just my experience. Id buy them again. In the end, probably cant go wrong with Michellin, Pirelli's, Goodyears or Bridgestones each has its strengths and weaknesses based on how, where and what you drive... They are all premium brands with a premium price.
Just my .02.
Last edited by Brads911sc; 02-11-2009 at 11:41 AM.
02-11-2009, 11:59 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
Just as an aside rusnak, I had a couple of sets of S03's before switching to the GY F1's, and I thought them to be great tires. The GY's were an improvement, IMO. They were the tires I ran in Dallas for a couple of years-make no mistake, we got COLD, we got RAIN and we had HEAT. They performed well in all instances. When I finally got a set of R compound tires, they were my rain tires at the track, and more than a few were surprised at how they dealt with water.
02-11-2009, 03:10 PM
#23
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If you are looking for something very comparible to the Falken Azenis, try the Hankook R-S2. They are very similar in price and performance as the Azenis.
The Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec are supposed to be pretty good for autox use as they heat up fast.
If you are serious about competing and want the very fastest and don't mind paying for it, check out the Yokohama Advan AD07
or Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R. These are what the top ST drivers are using.
Don't even consider the gForce Sports, they're not in the same league as the ones I mentioned.
Please click the links for more info on the tires.
-Scott
The Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec are supposed to be pretty good for autox use as they heat up fast.
If you are serious about competing and want the very fastest and don't mind paying for it, check out the Yokohama Advan AD07
or Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R. These are what the top ST drivers are using.
Don't even consider the gForce Sports, they're not in the same league as the ones I mentioned.
Please click the links for more info on the tires.
-Scott
02-11-2009, 03:52 PM
#24
I haddah Google dat
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The only time I experienced Goodyear F1 tires was at the "Streets of Willow" course. A bunch of us rented the track for a day and I was in a Corvette. I think a C4 or something. Not too into Corvettes, but the tires were very impressive. And you can drive to and from the track with them.
02-11-2009, 07:47 PM
#25
I ran Goodyear F1s on my BMW Z3 and they were incredible. They are the only tire I've ever used that made me feel truly confident on wet pavement.
I just put them on my 911. Had them at MidOhio for one DE. They did very well.
I've heard complaints about their soft sidewalls. They may not have been a good choice for Vroomgirl for Autocross, but I'd recommend them highly for street. I hope to get a spare set of wheels and R-compound for the track, but on any rainy DE weekend, the Goodyear F1s will be on.
No better tire in the rain
Kathy/Vroomgirl: CONGRATS ON THE NEW TIRES! WOO HOO! You're gonna do great at Autocross (and, hey, if you ever grow some kahoonas and do another "real" track event... you'll be great there too.)
I just put them on my 911. Had them at MidOhio for one DE. They did very well.
I've heard complaints about their soft sidewalls. They may not have been a good choice for Vroomgirl for Autocross, but I'd recommend them highly for street. I hope to get a spare set of wheels and R-compound for the track, but on any rainy DE weekend, the Goodyear F1s will be on.
No better tire in the rain
Kathy/Vroomgirl: CONGRATS ON THE NEW TIRES! WOO HOO! You're gonna do great at Autocross (and, hey, if you ever grow some kahoonas and do another "real" track event... you'll be great there too.)
02-12-2009, 12:32 AM
#26
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I ran Goodyear F1s on my BMW Z3 and they were incredible. They are the only tire I've ever used that made me feel truly confident on wet pavement.
I just put them on my 911. Had them at MidOhio for one DE. They did very well.
I've heard complaints about their soft sidewalls. They may not have been a good choice for Vroomgirl for Autocross, but I'd recommend them highly for street. I hope to get a spare set of wheels and R-compound for the track, but on any rainy DE weekend, the Goodyear F1s will be on.
No better tire in the rain
Kathy/Vroomgirl: CONGRATS ON THE NEW TIRES! WOO HOO! You're gonna do great at Autocross (and, hey, if you ever grow some kahoonas and do another "real" track event... you'll be great there too.)
I just put them on my 911. Had them at MidOhio for one DE. They did very well.
I've heard complaints about their soft sidewalls. They may not have been a good choice for Vroomgirl for Autocross, but I'd recommend them highly for street. I hope to get a spare set of wheels and R-compound for the track, but on any rainy DE weekend, the Goodyear F1s will be on.
No better tire in the rain
Kathy/Vroomgirl: CONGRATS ON THE NEW TIRES! WOO HOO! You're gonna do great at Autocross (and, hey, if you ever grow some kahoonas and do another "real" track event... you'll be great there too.)
As to the "real" track stuff - in keeping with my southern theme, you can KISS MAH GRITS!
I'm signed up for 2 DEs so far - March 7/8 at Barber with PCA, and a 1-day at Little Talladega in May. I am tentatively planning to drive Road Atlanta with NASA-SE later in the season, probably in December. So there.
NOT THAT I'M DEFENSIVE OR ANYTHING
02-12-2009, 08:46 AM
#27
Can't wait to hear about the DE events. You're gonna be on some awesome tracks.
02-12-2009, 06:04 PM
#28
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So I can kick your a$$
See what you get for encouraging me?
02-12-2009, 06:14 PM
#29
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And while I'm here, I drove my car the 60 miles to work today because the plan was to drop it off at the shop to put the Dunlops on & do a few other minor track prep things.
WELL. I got all the way to my office, unloaded my crap, came back out, and the car, she would not start. She'd been untypically hard to start for the first time this morning. Long story short: alternator.
Good thing I didn't shell out for the Michelin Sport Cups I really wanted! This trip to the shop is going to be a bit more expensive than originally planned. But I'm so lucky it happened just as it did. I could have been stranded at home this morning, an hour from the shop. Or died at any point along the 60 mile drive to town, or especially in the half-hour interstate traffic jam I got stuck in. But no, she got me all the way to my office building and neatly into a parking space before she gave out.
One of the guys from the shop (Eurasian Auto in Bham) kindly came to my office (very near the shop), and push-started the car by rolling it down the big hill in the parking lot in reverse. Awesome! I'm so easily amused. I may come back later and post a link to the video I shot at the shop.
Of the guys' butts as they were bent over the engine bays of the beautiful older Porsches they were working on. I love being a girl. You can tell a guy you are taking pictures of his butt and he LOVES IT.
OK where was I?? I will do another post later with some "pesky alternator" questions.
THANKS for all the tire tips. I am really looking forward to breaking in these Dunlops, and getting out to play at my AX test & tune this weekend.
WELL. I got all the way to my office, unloaded my crap, came back out, and the car, she would not start. She'd been untypically hard to start for the first time this morning. Long story short: alternator.
Good thing I didn't shell out for the Michelin Sport Cups I really wanted! This trip to the shop is going to be a bit more expensive than originally planned. But I'm so lucky it happened just as it did. I could have been stranded at home this morning, an hour from the shop. Or died at any point along the 60 mile drive to town, or especially in the half-hour interstate traffic jam I got stuck in. But no, she got me all the way to my office building and neatly into a parking space before she gave out.
One of the guys from the shop (Eurasian Auto in Bham) kindly came to my office (very near the shop), and push-started the car by rolling it down the big hill in the parking lot in reverse. Awesome! I'm so easily amused. I may come back later and post a link to the video I shot at the shop.
Of the guys' butts as they were bent over the engine bays of the beautiful older Porsches they were working on. I love being a girl. You can tell a guy you are taking pictures of his butt and he LOVES IT.
OK where was I?? I will do another post later with some "pesky alternator" questions.
THANKS for all the tire tips. I am really looking forward to breaking in these Dunlops, and getting out to play at my AX test & tune this weekend.
02-12-2009, 08:31 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Welll......you could post your pics on the I'd Hit It thread, but you'd set a new record for flame wars. I'm going to have to put you on ignore, in case you do this.